I have tried to ignore this but just had to vent for a second. I was a web editor for a major Metropolitian University for two years. I still work at the University in a different capacity, although I do the web writing and editing for my department. This does not make me infallible to errors, nor does it make me the expert on all things regarding editing. That being said, I have had numerous editors call me out on something that I know I am doing correctly. They keep saying that I need to capitalize the first word in my quotes.

For example I will write: When I laid the bag on the counter, Amy said, "that's cute." They want me to type: When I laid the bag on the counter, Amy said, "That's cute." That is not proper punctuation. Just to double check to make sure I wasn't crazy, I looked through my editing documents for the thousandth time. They sit next to me at my desk all day. I also double checked on various websites. Finally, I sent an IM to the editor team here and asked them. They told me I am absolutely correct. I refuse to do this the wrong way. I have not wasted my time replying to the editors because I still received a '9' on all these shops and will be paid. It is just a tough pill to swallow.

Again, I don't care about the score and I don't care about their opinion. It just amazes me that some of these people are employed as editors. Do they not have the APA guidelines right next to them? Are they just winging it? I've seem some goofy suggestions and I am thinking, "huh?" You only capitalize when the quote begins a sentence or if the first word in the quote is a proper noun or the quote is a complete sentence by itself. "That's cute" is hardly a complete sentence.

This rule can be tricky if you haven't taken proper grammar courses or done your homework. In that context, I would have written it like they said.
I am just wondering why you say that is hardly a complete sentence. I see a simple sentence but that is still a a sentence, nonetheless.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2013 02:38PM by CJ410.

I was thinking the same thing about the complete sentence. No editors have ever come back when I quoted part of a sentence without capitalizing.

The sales associate said the product was "total crap" and I should look elsewhere for a better value.

I agree that Lisa's "total crap" example is correct because "total crap" is NOT a complete sentence but simply a quoted characterization. But: The salesman said, "That's cute" is NOT the same situation because that is just a contraction of "That is cute" which certainly IS a complete sentence. If you pulled the quote out of the middle of, "In my opinion, that's cute on you" technically there probably should be ellipses before and after "that's cute" to indicate omitted words. If you are writing, [The salesman said it was "cute"] then capitalization isn't needed because "cute" cannot be taken as a sentence whereas "that's cute" take out of a larger sentence can be misconstrued as a full sentence. The fact that you set the quote off with a comma in front of it also suggests you are quoting a sentence of dialogue, not a characterization from within a spoken sentence. Note that Lisa does not set "total crap" off with a comma in front of it.

Get around it by dumping the quotes entirely. "The salesman said that it was cute" does not require quotes around the "it was cute" part. Why put something ambiguous in the report, knowing it will cause an editor to take it as an error?

Anything you quote that is the beginning of a complete sentence certainly does require capitalization of the first word within the quotes. The problem here is that the editor can't tell you are quoting from within a sentence because what you are quoting can stand as a sentence on its own.

A sentence broken up by description of action requires capitalization of the first word in the sentence, but not of the first word following the interruption. He said, "Red looks good on you," then turned to the mirror and continued, "if you're a hooker."

I see your point on the "that's cute" being a contraction for "that is cute" which is a complete sentence. It was a bad example on my part. Either way, I am not trying to be annoying or sound like a know it all, which is how I fear I've been perceived. It has come up three times and I always save my narratives.

I haven't put anything ambiguous in a report intentionally, knowing that an editor will take it as an error. I'm not sure why I would do that. I type out the narrative as it happened and if I have sent a text to myself at the location with the person's direct quote, then I use it. Sometimes they want to know exactly what was said when you entered, etc. Whatever I put, I put because I think it is accurate, I'm not a game player. This has only happened three times and I have not submitted additional reports for any of the three companies I am referring since the editing comments.

On the other hand, I hadn't thought of it this way: (quote from itsasecret)

(Anything you quote that is the beginning of a complete sentence certainly does require capitalization of the first word within the quotes. The problem here is that the editor can't tell you are quoting from within a sentence because what you are quoting can stand as a sentence on its own. )

And to be fair, I am not usually quoting from a complete sentence. I found it odd that I did this for the first 100 reports or so and then three times in one week I received this.

It is quite possible that I have been wrong on some of these or the editor, I realize no one is perfect, including me. I had a hard week with some other issues and this just seemed like icing on the cake. I'm sure everyone can understand having a bad week. Perhaps I am over-reacting. I just figured it would be nice to vent or commiserate with others who may have had a similar experience.

It is possible that there are different guidelines for this type of thing in regards to web editing with APA format, I'm not sure. I have just been following the guidelines that I have used for the past several years, although I admit to being wrong with the example I used.

You have given me food for thought and I will look up some other formatting guidelines and perhaps alter mine where necessary to avoide annoying edits.

I didn't take it as a know-it-all type comment. It is a good topic and quite interesting. Most of us did not come from a life as professional writers and/or editors.

I had a grammar teacher my freshman year of high school who HAMMERED these rules into us.... Since I now do editing professionally for self-published authors, I have had many times to be grateful to her for making "comma rules" particularly so ingrained in me that I don't even think about them any more. The last author I edited just used commas and semi colons interchangeably.

And I'm glad you came here to vent, because this gives us all (including me, who thinks I'm pretty good at this grammar stuff) a chance to be more aware of how we write and how it can be misconstrued by editors. I'm better as an editor for others than with my own work because I write soooo much it's hard to be totally on my game all the time and I have let lazy habits creep into my own writing. I can see other people's errors but sometimes don't notice (or aren't bothered by) my own.



Edited to change a "that" to a "who" in the first sentence......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2013 03:43PM by itsasecret.

I think this is a great topic and appreciate everyone's input.

I'm interested in punctuation and making sure that mine is correct, but I'm sure I sometimes get it wrong.

Honestly, where it bothers me the most is when a local radio station plays their entire library in alphabetical order. They put "Fifty-Seven Channels (and Nothin' On)" before "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover" because they IGNORE they hyphen. It annoys me every year!

This issue will only get worse, I can't speak for all states, but the public schools in Ohio and Kentucky no longer teach grammar, they assume that kids will pick it up when reading. From what my husband and I have seen with our two oldest kids they do not seem to do much beyond basic punctuation either.

I work with undergraduate students and meet with probably a hundred of them each semester. When I email them to schedule a meeting, I have many of them reply in text lingo-it makes my colleagues and I go crazy! I usually discuss it with them when we meet, someone has to to teach them how to behave in a professional environment!

I picked most of my knowledge of spelling, grammar, punctuation, and capitalization ruled by avid reading as a child, but these days publishers don't seem to edit as scrupulously as in the past. I've seen best-sellers with errors in print. And now there are a LOT of self-pubbed books getting out there and managing to land on "best" lists because the story is good but that have no competent editing so it will be harder for kids to pick up the rules by reading like I did. And don't get me started on kids text lingo. It's fine to do it if you know what you're abbreviating and how to spell it, but a lot don't and that's the only way they know how to write. They really think "your" is spelled UR.

Unfortunately, my excellent grammar (and vocabulary) teacher is now retired.

As someone who is spelling and grammar challenged, I too appreciate the topic.
I get the basics, usually, but it seems like a really complicated system.

Is there a short answer to: Who thunk'd up all these grammar rules?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2013 07:37PM by eveb.

The editors are wrong KatB. You are right. I know punctuation and have rarely made a punctuation error in my reports, which is amazing huh?

The 'comma', after the words Amy SAID, means that the sentence is continuing on.

No way should that letter 't' be capitalized.

The heck with them. You are right and it would bug the heck out of me too. Unfortunately, they are the ones who pay us.

Keep up the good work and keep smiling, eh?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2013 07:13PM by Canuck.

KatB- I don't think anyone perceived you as a know it all. We all have our venting days. I LOVE this topic because it challenges us to think about our writing skills and correct them, if necessary.

As far as grammar, you are right. I homeschool my children and expect more out of them than most public school systems. I used to be fantastic at all things grammar but now seem to be a comma hog. Haha! Teaching my fourth grader this year has refreshed my memory quite a bit. My husband and I also challenge ourselves to keep our minds fresh in several ways. That being said, I always excelled in language and he in math. What a fun household we live in! He will write out some crazy 6 inch problem and I do my best to figure it out. It usually ends in him teaching me what in the world he wrote and then we walk through the problem. It may not work for all, but we want to be good examples in exercising our brains.

Canuck, you are incorrect. The comma announces that a quotation of dialogue is coming up, and the first letter of the sentence spoken by the speaker is to be capitalized, unless you are quoting only part of the sentence, in which case an ellipsis is used to indicate there are words missing from the sentence. Go pick up any published book and find some place where <He said, "The sun is shining"> doesn't have the word "the" capitalized. On the other hand <He said that the sun was shining> has neither mid-sentence capital nor comma because he is not being quoted.

<She said it was a "cute dress"> does not require capitalization of "cute" because there is no sentence within the quotation marks and all the quotation marks do is establish that "cute dress" were the words she spoke, and that she didn't say it was "cutesy" or some other word, but she actually said "cute dress."

It has to do with whether you are quoting the dialogue: She said, "Cute dress. How much did that cost?" or quoting FROM the dialogue: She said the dress was "cute" and asked, "How much did that cost?" Note that there is no comma in front of "cute" but there is in front of the quoted question.

The comma is really a critical component to designating whether you are quoting the entirety of what was said or only a specific word or phrase out of the entire sentence. OP's original example was this: When I laid the bag on the counter, Amy said, "that's cute."

Had she instead written, "When I laid the bag on the counter, Amy said it was "cute,"" then you have a different situation. But there is no comma after "Amy said" now and that makes all the difference.

<Amy said it was "cute"> and <Amy said, "It was cute."> are two different sentences. In the first case Amy might have actually said, "You may think it made you look fat but I thought it was cute." In the second case, Amy just said, "It was cute," without speculation about what the wearer thought.

One other thing that tends to go inside quotes are not actual things that were said but euphemisms. If I were on a shop and someone came up and said, "Nice ass," I might report it that he commented on my "backside" which suggests that he didn't actually say "backside."

Unless I have a very pleasant donkey.

However, I don't look good in red.

I recommend "Eats, Shoots, & Leaves" as a great primer and a fun read.

Itsasecret has it totally correct. The comma sets off the direct quote, the first letter of which needs to be capitalized because it is a sentence.

eveb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is there a short answer to: Who thunk'd up all
> these grammar rules?

Yes. God.

Secret--I agree with everything. And I admire your energy level to be able to type all of that. I shall post vicariously through you.

(I have so much more to say, but....zzzzzzz)

LOL. Nobody ever accused me of being succinct.

It is proper punctuation when it comes to English to capitalize direct quotes. Even though it doesn't seem to make sense since it's in the middle of a sentence and not a proper noun, quotes ALWAYS start with capitals.

You can see more at:
[owl.english.purdue.edu] under "Direct Quotations", #2.

LisaSTL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was thinking the same thing about the complete
> sentence. No editors have ever come back when I
> quoted part of a sentence without capitalizing.
>
> The sales associate said the product was "total
> crap" and I should look elsewhere for a better
> value.

In the case of the sales associate saying "the product was 'total crap'," the total wouldn't be capitalized because it's not technically a direct quote. If, however, the sentence read "The sales associate said, 'This is total crap'," then it's considered a direct quote and needs to be capitalized. Integrated quotes do not.

I appreciate the discussion as well, but I'm surprised by some of the confusion. I've never considered not capitalizing the first letter of a sentence when quoting, if it's a whole sentence and not just a word or phrase.

"That's cute," is a complete sentence. That's means that is, so the full sentence means "That is cute."
According to all of the English grammar and punctuation that I have been taught as well as the training I received to become a teacher, the editor is correct. I have always taught it this way too. The first word of any quote gets capitalized, no matter if it is in the middle of the rest of the sentence. If the quotation is split in the sentence, the first word in the second set of quotation does not get capitalized. Ex: My brother said, "Test are not fun," and then he added, "and games." I am looking at the Harbrace College Handbook now and they agree with this.



As I was looking at the Harbrace college Handbook, I found that one of the things I did not know and was correct by an editor was actually the way the editor said. It has to do with question within sentences. She stated that the sentence should end in a ? Ex: The question was, Do you text a lot? Notice that Do gets capitalized and it ends in a question mark. The only exception is that after a colon, you can, but don't have to use a capital. He asked one question: do (or Do) you use texting?