I have no one to "talk shop" with and this was an issue within a shop. I am not a parent. I was raised by a strict, education minded family. Down time was considered being unproductive. Everything was an educational experience waiting to be reaped. When you were old enough and mature enough, you set out to "work". This work could be household chores for the youngsters all the way up to a "real" job for the older kids. At 11 I was "interning" at my state and town papers doing photojournalism. I made $40 for any picture posted and $100 for any photo/ story combo. It was mostly sports stuff and school assignments. When I was 18 I had about 15k in the bank. If I wanted something, I had to ask the banker aka my mom. She would ask if I needed the item or if it was a want. She also would ask if I could wait until it went on sale. If I couldn't, could I at least find it cheaper. Mind you if I hadn't had a major accident I would still be doing photography (but I digress).

Today I posed as a mother of a 12 year old that wants to go to summer camp and an after school program. My daughter (I love the name Betsy Avrylla) is being home schooled and these activities would broaden her socialization skills. I stated that I needed to discuss this with Betsy Avrylla (pronounced Avry-ella) since she would be paying 80% of the costs or $45 a week. The associate was aghast at my statement. She asked how I could make a 12 year old work. I stated that Betsy Avrylla walks the neighbors dogs, babysits and fixes computers. This is how she makes money. I have ways for her to be socialized without spending money mostly through family field trips and school sponsored trips. If she wishes to have this, then we have agreed that she contributes to financing. I was glared at.

Was I wrong in stating that Betsy Avrylla is the one to pay a portion of this? Did this seem far fetched or cruel? How would you handle this?

Fabulous story, gypsy. Betsy will thank you some day!

(heart)

gypsymonkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no one to "talk shop" with and this was an
> issue within a shop. I am not a parent. I was
> raised by a strict, education minded family. Down
> time was considered being unproductive. Everything
> was an educational experience waiting to be
> reaped. When you were old enough and mature
> enough, you set out to "work". This work could be
> household chores for the youngsters all the way up
> to a "real" job for the older kids. At 11 I was
> "interning" at my state and town papers doing
> photojournalism. I made $40 for any picture posted
> and $100 for any photo/ story combo. It was mostly
> sports stuff and school assignments. When I was 18
> I had about 15k in the bank. If I wanted
> something, I had to ask the banker aka my mom. She
> would ask if I needed the item or if it was a
> want. She also would ask if I could wait until it
> went on sale. If I couldn't, could I at least find
> it cheaper. Mind you if I hadn't had a major
> accident I would still be doing photography (but I
> digress).
>
> Today I posed as a mother of a 12 year old that
> wants to go to summer camp and an after school
> program. My daughter (I love the name Betsy
> Avrylla) is being home schooled and these
> activities would broaden her socialization skills.
> I stated that I needed to discuss this with Betsy
> Avrylla (pronounced Avry-ella) since she would be
> paying 80% of the costs or $45 a week. The
> associate was aghast at my statement. She asked
> how I could make a 12 year old work. I stated that
> Betsy Avrylla walks the neighbors dogs, babysits
> and fixes computers. This is how she makes money.
> I have ways for her to be socialized without
> spending money mostly through family field trips
> and school sponsored trips. If she wishes to have
> this, then we have agreed that she contributes to
> financing. I was glared at.
>
> Was I wrong in stating that Betsy Avrylla is the
> one to pay a portion of this? Did this seem far
> fetched or cruel? How would you handle this?

The only think I think you did wrong was giving poor Betsy the middle name of Avrylla.

The entitlement society that we have turned into needs more Betsys. But I agree with cpburt - change her middle name.

Hi Gypsy,

While I think you did A-OK, I generally, do not hear or see kids working under the age of 16. (in my experience, in my area - this is only my opinion based on my own personal experience)

As a parent, I can attest to the fact that no way would I ever hire a 12 year old child to babysit my child, or to do domestic items such as cutting the lawn, when I can hire a service to do it for slightly more. The truth is that adults have taken over these jobs and it would be incredibly difficult for a youngster to compete with that. Hey, do I want to pay a young kid who might do an okay job, or a grown adult to do this.

For example, when I was a kid, kids did the newspapers - they delivered them door to door and collected money, etc. Much later, now those jobs only go to adults with vehicles. I wanted my kid to get a newspaper route (years ago) - there was no such thing. They offered to accept ME for the route, but only if I had a working vehicle at my dispense.

Not to mention, these days newspapers are being replaced by other sources of information, but I digress.

That is not to say that is true for ALL, just in my own personal experience. I tried to get my kids to do work as you described - no takers (or very few - my daughter had one babysitting job at the age of 15 but was 'traded in' for a grown woman to do the same and had much more available time. The parent worked and needed full time care versus the occasional nights out).

Kids today do have a lot of downtime IMO, but it seems the time is filled with homework, internet, electronics, games, and play. Its far different than from when I was a kid. So much more information is out there, and so when I hear about someone getting abducted in a nearby park, or that a lot of criminal action is taking place in a certain area then you can bet that I would not let a youngster go to those places alone.

When I was a kid my parents kicked us out of the house in the AM, and we didn't come back before it was dark or we heard Mom call out, "Suppers Ready!"

Times sure have changed.

When my sons were about 10-13 years of age, they worked at odd jobs. They made a fortune shoveling driveways one year when we had a huge blizzard. I answered the phone as the word spread and made a list for more customers. School was out and they just went out every day and shoveled. They did the older neighbors for free, but charged a good price for newbies. Then they expanded and decided they could do lawn clean ups in the spring. They made up little business cards and all. One guy hired them to clean up his yard for $100. After weekend upon weekend of working there and coming home dirty and exhausted, my husband and I decided to take a look at what was going on in that yard. The guy's yard was huge with ivy vines all over that had to be cleaned out. It clearly would have cost him upwards of $500 to have a service do what he wanted them to do. We finally convinced them to tell the guy they were being under paid. I think he threw in an extra $50 and made them drag tons of filled bags of debris to the curb. My hubby and I spent a full day with them finishing it up. We made sure they finished the job and got paid...but that was the end of that so-called business. It's sure a good thing to have kids earn their own money. It means a lot to them that way and they are more careful about spending it. Hard work never hurt either. But, it is hard for youth today to find work and parents tend to be so protective of them that they don't want them out of their site these days. The days of roaming the neighborhood on their own are pretty much over.

The main thing I find unusual about your post is that 80% of the camp fee will only be $45 a week. It depends where you live and what is happening there. When my kids were that age I knew many of their friends who picked up odd change here and there. Babysitting at 12 was alive and well, often as a mothers helper for less than minimum wage. Mostly they did work for their parents who then paid them a "salary". That was something I did not do in my family. I gave my kids a rather small allowance compared to what other kids were getting. I knew kids this age who got $20-30 a week and these were from middle class families. Many kids also got money from grandparents and aunts and uncles at holidays and I was always amazed at how much families would give. Some of them actually saved up the money!!! I would think it not unusual for some families to ask their children to pay part of their camp experience although it might be unusual for them to tell the registration person that the child would be paying. My son paid for most of his boy scout camps which were several hundred dollars thru fund raising proceeds we did with the troop for this very reason. He took a lot more shifts than most of the kids did so he was able to earn quite a bit to offset the expenses. His troop prorated funds based on how many volunteer hours each kid did.

If the company allowed you to use that scenario, then you did nothing wrong.

I watch the old Lassie TV show sometimes (and the old Andy Griffith show, too), and I do recall when
we were basically allowed to roam free for HOURS. Nowadays, if you let your kid roam, and something happens to him (or her), everybody screams "what were the PARENTS doing, letting that kid be out
unsupervised?"

I know I worked outside the home starting age 10. My dad dropped out of school before he was 14, and never had a chance to go back, because it was the Depression, and the 50 cents a day he earned chopping cotton was necessary to feed his 8 siblings. I don't think a 14 year old would be allowed to
work 12-15 hour days even if they could find a job.

The world has changed. Some for the good, some not so good.

cease

I'm concerned that the scenario you used might make you memorable because it's a bit out of the norm and the associate had a negative reaction to it. So there might be a possibility they'll remember you when they read your report and you won't be able to shop this client again. I hope you're able to write your report in such a way that they won't figure out who you are.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2014 02:32AM by HeatherC.

That was my thought. You made yourself too memorable. It's none of their business and shouldn't be a factor in the shop if the kid is kicking in part of the money.

And "Jennifer Marie" would be a nice, common, forgettable name. Nobody calls a kid Betsy these days and if they do, it wouldn't come with the middle name Avrylla. Give a kid a weird name and then don't even pronounce it phonetically the way it is spelled and you will be remembered, and your kid will be pitied. First for being saddled with such a moniker and second for having to pay for her own summer camp.


We're supposed to protect our anonymity and act like a regular customer when we do a shop. You could have just said "she saved up her money for this" and skipped the details about how she worked to earn it; she could have saved up her birthday money. In many places it's not legal for anyone under 12 to sit for anyone but their own siblings. Kids under 16 can't legally operate power equipment such as lawnmowers. Times have changed from when I got my first fast food job at the age of 13. I don't agree with those changes; I think parents should be able to make those decisions. But some things my generation did without thinking twice about it can bring charges of child endangerment these days.

Seriously, a kid under 16 can't operate a lawn mower? A PUSH lawn mower? Times have changed. I got my first "real" job tending flower beds when I was 11, and took over my brother's lawn customers when I was 12. At 14, I got my first job with deductions, washing dishes at a restaurant after school. You had to be 16 to cook in Ontario, and that is what I did throughout most of high school.

Legally, in Arizona, there is a law on the books that anyone under 16 cannot operate power tools. Well, at least there was at one time; maybe they overturned it when I was living in California. I don't think it was ever enforced; probably just something to get insurance companies off the hook if something happened.

I know a boy who was driving his dad's backhoe at 12. He's now 20.

I think there's also a law in this state that you can't keep a donkey in a bathtub. I never said Arizona lawmakers had brains.

I am a mom of a soon to be 10 and soon to be 11 year old. In my household my children have to help do chores around the house daily, and help with special things on weekends. They also have to do their homework, do well in school and participate in the after school activities they choose. That is all the payment contribution I expect from them for any extras. They do earn money for buying things on their own as well, but I don't think I would make them pay for something like camp.

I agree the name was too memorable for a mystery shop. The original post says summer camp and after school program, so if the child had to come up with $45 each and every week, that seems like a lot for a 12 year old to earn on a regular basis.

My oldest always earned a lot from odd jobs during the summer and used it for the latest expensive gadget/want. She could have also paid for a few weeks of camp with it, but summer camps are a necessity for moms who need to keep working when school is out so we pay for it.

My youngest has a regular "job" as a mother's helper one afternoon a week, and even though it isn't much, it really does add up quickly.

At 12? Yes this is way to far fetched.

To pay for summer camp she must earn $45 per week? Yes, this is over the top.

Fixing computers at 12? Will she be starting Yale in Sept?

To earn money to spend at summer camp. No. Totally reasonable.

Didn't read the first post thoroughly

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2014 03:49PM by jpgilham.

Sallyctcss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Fixing computers at 12? Will she be starting Yale
> in Sept?
>

It's a perfectly reasonable thing to be doing. People get malware on their computer and are totally baffled by it. You bring a disk or CD of an up-to-date copy of Malwarebytes, and computer is fixed.

I quickly add that I am not meaning to belittle Betsy's skills!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2014 04:00PM by Ishmael.

My first job was at 10. I had an iced tea stand [sweet only, as that's the proper southern way]. At 11 I was mowing yards and going by construction sites collecting soda bottles for the refunds. I guess I've always had a bit of the entrepreneur in me. BTW, entrepreneur is French for money making S.O.B.

And, heaven forbid...I was left alone for a whole weekend when I was 12. Mom & dad were going down to Florida to buy a lot at Palm Coast. I asked if we could stop at Marineland or Cape Kennedy and was told no. I said I didn't want to go...and they decided to leave me at home. I survived and the house didn't get burned down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2014 05:33PM by James Bond 007.5.

i borrowed the neighbors (gas, push) lawnmower and charged him to mow his lawn. At the age of 10, I was ironing another neighbors clothes for work; when I was twelve, I babysat a mentally challenged 16 yr.old, who could not even speak. Worked the strawberry fields and when they caught me, since I was underage, I then had to get a work permit. I did whatever I could to earn a few dollars. With that money, I bought my own school clothes as there was not extra funds available in the household income for such necessities. I hoarded money and still do because i taught myself the value of a dollar.

There is nothing wrong in teaching children good values, how to appreciate themselves and their work efforts.

I call my daughter Betsy. She is real. She hasn't worked much so far. I get tired of hearing stories about people who started working in the coal mines at age 9. Good for you. If you've got a kid with no common sense, (like Betsy) she would have gotten murdered if I sent her out to work at age 12. Everyone is different as are their opportunities.

It really wasn't the associate's place to "go there" with you.

I would be opposed to any child being "sent out" to work at 12. Most kids who work that young I'm pretty sure were begging to do it. These days, you have to get the school's permission for a child to get an actual job other than something like babysitting or mowing lawns. I worked all through high school at an ice cream store under circumstances that today would be against the law (working till 10 or 11 at night, working 25-30 hours a week during the school year, working without adult supervision much of the time). But by the end of my junior year I had saved up enough to buy my first horse and was making enough to support him.

Couldn't do that today. Too many stupid laws on the books designed to keep people from being self-sufficient.

pony123lucy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I call my daughter Betsy. She is real.


The OP said she called her "Betsy Avrylla", which I think is too memorable for a mystery shop. "Betsy" would be fine, although most 12 yr. old Elizabeths these days don't go by that. I think Betsy is cute!

I think today's kids are either soft and sit around all day, or are hard and spend their time bullying others and committing crimes. What a world.
I grew up doing so many little jobs that people think I'm lying when I tell them the sorts of jobs I've had. I was a switchboard operator, delivered newspapers, send out bills at a brokerage firm after closing, was a radio announcer, published a magazine for selling and trading science fiction magazines, etc. etc. When I finished college I was hired by IBM starting the day after graduation and worked with and taught computer science for 46 years. Then I went back to delivering newspapers and mystery shopping.
It's been a long, complicated life, but I think it was better than sitting around.
Aren't most kids today just a lost generation (or two). They seem to want everything handed to them by the government, not having any family to speak of.
I'm getting depressed again!!!

James Bond 007.5 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And, heaven forbid...I was left alone for a whole
> weekend when I was 12. Mom & dad were going down
> to Florida to buy a lot at Palm Coast. I asked if
> we could stop at Marineland or Cape Kennedy and
> was told no. I said I didn't want to go...and they
> decided to leave me at home. I survived and the
> house didn't get burned down.

Ah, the good old days. Isn't it refreshing to think back and realize that our parents really didn't need to know what we were doing all day? Some of the things that my brothers and I did were more than questionable. There are many stories that I can't share with my kids. Happy times.

I agree there is nothing wrong with a child working as long as it isn't excessive and isn't interfering with healthy living and education. I also agree that gypsy probably made herself memorable by the name she chose and the details she went into.

Personally I started selling door to door for an elderly neighbour at about eight. At 11 I was working after school and Saturdays unsupervised in a 'junk store' to earn money for a plane ticket to England. Junk stores don't seem to exist these days but they bought and sold just about anything you'd find in a yard sale.

My son was given an allowance equal to the price of four cans of Coke. The reason I picked this amount is that is what I was given as a child. When he was quite young I felt it was unreasonable for him to have to pay for presents for others but I did want him to start learning the value of money. I used to make him pay 10% of the cost of whatever the present he chose cost.

By the time he was eight he was running a lemonade stand which also sold homemade jams (which I obviously helped him make). He also had a flyer route which started as one hour twice a week. I still remember the first time he went to the store after he got his first pay cheque. He wanted a sticker book that was next to the cash register until he saw the price and decided he wasn't buying it. He commented something to the effect that he had to work a whole week to get that much. I was so proud of him.

He delivered flyers for ten years, finishing up with about 10 hours a week's worth of work. He had held the same job for about seven years now and all that time has only taken four days off when the doctor told him to. He's never carried a balance on his credit card. I think the credit for this started back when he was eight and learnt the value of and relationship between work and money.

Glabow - there are always the extremes, but most all of the kids these days that I know are far from what you are describing. Many of todays kids are very intelligent, savvy, and personable. Almost all of them (that I know) are college bound and well-educated, while also being very knowledgeable about today's technology - far more than I could ever be, even if I tried.

There are a lot of kids doing a lot of great things today, and are very well informed.

I knew a Betsy in high school, but I agree with the others: name WAY too uncommon. I will say $45/week isn't undoable ($8-10/hr for two kids is the going rate these days), but it also suggests you're farming the kid out just to pay for her camp--that's about all she could expect to earn while at camp.


In future, try "Madison Joy." Madison is one of those inexplicable "fad names" that don't appear to have any particular origin, and it appeared in the 2000s. You can also do what I do and pick names from books--Emma and Anne-with-an-E will be in style as long as Jane Austen and L.M. Montgomery are in print, and if you want a quirkier option, nobody blinks twice at Hermione anymore (Lily/Lilly has also made a resurgence).

I don't disagree with your scenario per se, but I would like to meet a current 12 year old who is making $45 a week, enough weeks in a row to pay for summer camp. That is impressive. I am likely one of the younger people on this board, and when I was 12 I didn't know anyone making that kind of money consistently. Maybe once a month or something with a babysitting gig, but times have changed. Many of the jobs you all are describing would go to a 15 or 16 year old, or be hired to a professional service (especially in this economy, with so many adults looking for work). Maybe a little more likely that they earned the money over time and saved it, and I am not sure if that was what you were going with or not. Whatever you do, I would just try and make sure you are never memorable. You don't want to lose places to shop just because they remembered you.

Oh names these days have become so unique. Some of my students' names: Hunter, Gunnar (I had a hard time distinguishing those two) Maddox, Greyson, Graydon, Griffin, Aubrey, Ariel, Madison, Braydon, Brandon, Brendon, Noah (m & f)Aldela (I used to sing Al-DE-LA every time she walked into the room and of course, no one ever knew the song)...no Betsy's, Elizabeth was always Elizabeth.. My son's dog is named Betsy after his favorite fishing area off the coastof SC..Betsy Ross. I think it's a cute name and the middle name probably wouldn't be so unusual around here.