I think it should be 25.

Which is worse ... one person losing his/her job because he/she didn't follow the law and ID a customer buying alcohol? Or multiple people losing their jobs when a restaurant is closed down because he/she didn't follow the law and ID a customer buying alcohol?

My niece was a foreign exchange student in Germany for a semester. Upon her return, I asked what was the most important thing she had learned. Without hesitation she replied "I learned about alcohol and drinking". Oh great. Then she explained in Germany the drinking age (at the time) was 16. Driving age was 21. Seems the Germans may be on to something.

Spork Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KARMA:Good god I hate that stupid "New Agey" word.
> Did all those dying from the Ebola virus in
> Liberia and other African countries give off "Bad
> Karma" during their lifetime?
>
> Stupid, Stupid, lack of critical thinking skills
> Stupid.


Karma is hardly "new age". It is a fundamental belief of the world's oldest religion. My personal religion (I prefer to call it spiritual belief system) is almost as old, and I can tell you that karma, as part of those religions, is not experienced in the same lifetime that it is earned. It is not a punishment or revenge or reward.

I sometimes cringe a little when I hear people throw the term out thoughtlessly, but I can't imagine getting so angry about it. I think "Stupid, Stupid, lack of critical thinking skills > Stupid." Is worse.

I apologize and stand corrected. You are right, the term gets thrown around carelessly and I was quick to pass judgement on your post.
That said, my belief system is firmly grounded in science.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2014 06:35AM by Spork.

Spork Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I apologize and stand corrected. You are right,
> the term gets thrown around carelessly and I was
> quick to pass judgement on your post.
> That said, my belief system is firmly grounded in
> science.


Fascinating. Your logic is impeccable. Live long and prosper!

Hymnsinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spork Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I apologize and stand corrected. You are right,
> > the term gets thrown around carelessly and I
> was
> > quick to pass judgement on your post.
> > That said, my belief system is firmly grounded
> in
> > science.
>
>
> Fascinating. Your logic is impeccable. Live long
> and prosper!

I have a feeling your response was sarcastic. If it didn't come across in my post I was truly sorry for being so quick to dismiss LJ's post, well let me assure you I definitely am. Sorry again, LJ. Your explanation was far more mature than my reactionary post.
I work in the science field, Hymnsinger.
In addition, I can feel for what the OP went through at that restaurant and I think it says a lot about her/him because he/she cares.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2014 04:03PM by Spork.

My belief system is firmly grounded in Haagen-Dazs.

I work in the science field as well. In all seriousness, I don't know that I really have a belief system. I have questions that science alone, or religion alone, don't satisfy for me.

Spork, OP is a male. Or a female with a goatee.

Added to all the above is the big possibility that one of the reasons this restaurant/bar hired a mystery shop company in the first place is because they knew the high stakes if one of their employees broke the carding rule and they may also have had some idea some of their employees were not following this rule of carding up to a certain age. So you were hired to help with this problem.
I grew up in New York when 18 was the legal drinking age and 18 was the driving age. I now live in a state where you get a driving license at age 16 and drink at 21 legally. When my kids were between 16 and 21 almost every one of their friends who had a car got into an accident or two or three, fortunately none of them with serious injuries but some pretty bad for the car. I do not know how many of these entailed drinking as the parents would most likely not share that important bit of the story.

@Spork - while I initially ruffled at your first post, I have to admit I was impressed by your ability to admit a mistake a publicly apologize. Most of us around here tend to dig in our heels and refuse to admit error.

It must be a liberating feeling. I can only guess since I've never been wrong.

(All kidding aside, I do admire your humility.)

sethd85 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which is worse ... one person losing his/her job
> because he/she didn't follow the law and ID a
> customer buying alcohol? Or multiple people losing
> their jobs when a restaurant is closed down
> because he/she didn't follow the law and ID a
> customer buying alcohol?

Good point of view.

Here's what I was told when I worked for Circle K. In Maricopa County, if you sell without carding to someone who turns out to be underage, you:

--Lose your job.
--Get fined up to $60,000.
--Lose your driver's license.
--Go to Tent City for 30 days. You know--the American "auxiliary prison" that's been compared to Soviet gulags.

Your store:

--Loses its liquor license.
--Must pay $10,000 in fines.


Here's what happens if you sell without carding to a mystery shopper:

--You lose your job and other staff in your store get retrained.



Put in that perspective, I don't feel badly at all when someone gets fired for not carding me. You knew what your job was, you knew the consequences for not doing it, and you chose to not do it anyway. Not my problem. Feel glad I'm 26, not 19.

Nothing beats hearing the truth from someone who has walked in the shoes of the server. Thank you for the first hand input, Nina.

towncountry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I, for one, do everything I possibly can to not
> cost anybody their jobs. In this day an age when
> jobs are rare and unemployment basically
> inexistent, it's bad karma to put someone out on
> the street.
>
> I've had only actually two shops that I could have
> been a real bish but I kept my negative comment to
> a minimum and hopefully nobody got fired. I just
> reported that a little bit more enthusiasm
> would've been nice.
>
> A good friend of mine got fired because of a
> report saying she wasn't smiley enough and I quit
> a job once because a shopper said I short changed
> him a penny. Well, it was rush hour, and long line
> at the register and on my way back to return the
> guy's change, a penny flew off the tray, under a
> crowded table. So with a line of people waiting to
> be seated, I wasn't about to go back to the
> cashier and wait nor crawl under the table. When
> the manager confronted me about "stealing" from a
> customer, I said "You have got to be kidding me.
> After seven years of good service for this
> company, that's what I get? Fine, I quit. See
> ya!"
>
> Then, when I started shopping I promised myself
> that I'll always give someone the benefit of the
> doubt and keep my reports as positives as possible
> for all involved. And so far so good.

It's a @#$%& to have to write a report that you know is going to get someone fired. I get the whole benefit of the doubt thing. Honest mistakes happen, but if we are hired to report the truth, no matter how good or bad it happens to be. If you are watering it down to keep people from getting fired, than you are stealing from the MSC and from the client. If you can't do the job properly, don't take it.

My daughter started doing compliance shops when she was 19. She will no longer do announced compliance because she did get someone fired. She admits that she knows that is the possible outcome with any compliance shop, but she couldn't handle facing the person being confronted by the manager. She actually told me it was easier when she could just walk away and file the report quietly knowing the result would be the same. I guess it's kind of like my brother coming home from Afghanistan and telling me that he never looked after taking a shot because he just didn't want to know.

We all have to be able to live with ourselves once the reports are filed and the bad workers are jobless. If you can't handle that, then maybe this isn't the right line of work for you.

I am hired to do a job. If I report honestly and objectively I have done that job. They should be doing their job(s) when I'm doing my job.

Towncountry, a question for you...

You're shopping a new car dealership. On the test drive, the salesman drives the car off the lot and onto an open interstate, exceeding 100mph and bragging about how good the car handles. At this point, he is not only endangering your life and his life, but potentially the lives of the other drivers around him on the interstate.

How would you report that, and would you still be worried if he got fired?

towncountry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I, for one, do everything I possibly can to not
> cost anybody their jobs. In this day an age when
> jobs are rare and unemployment basically
> inexistent, it's bad karma to put someone out on
> the street.
>
> I've had only actually two shops that I could have
> been a real bish but I kept my negative comment to
> a minimum and hopefully nobody got fired. I just
> reported that a little bit more enthusiasm
> would've been nice.
>
> A good friend of mine got fired because of a
> report saying she wasn't smiley enough and I quit
> a job once because a shopper said I short changed
> him a penny. Well, it was rush hour, and long line
> at the register and on my way back to return the
> guy's change, a penny flew off the tray, under a
> crowded table. So with a line of people waiting to
> be seated, I wasn't about to go back to the
> cashier and wait nor crawl under the table. When
> the manager confronted me about "stealing" from a
> customer, I said "You have got to be kidding me.
> After seven years of good service for this
> company, that's what I get? Fine, I quit. See
> ya!"
>
> Then, when I started shopping I promised myself
> that I'll always give someone the benefit of the
> doubt and keep my reports as positives as possible
> for all involved. And so far so good.


I think that it's a toss up, one employee loses their job or the place that you are shopping gets shut down and they all lose their jobs. Personally, I couldn't do a shop like this but I do realize that they just have to be done.

Pammie, I think you summed it up quite nicely. It's not for everyone, so if you don't have the heart to do it leave the shop for someone who does. I could personally never be a phlebotomist, but I'm awfully glad someone can.

Lack of compliance puts businesses in jeopardy of being sued and it can lead to recklessness when alcohol is involved. I have no sympathy for an employee that puts his employer in that position due to not performing the job they are paid to do. I would never want to cause an employee to be fired however I prefer that to having underage drivers on the road jeopardizing the public's safety.

So to the original poster, did you mention that you are of legal drinking age but the server was fired because they didn't ask for your ID? Unless the laws in your area require the carding of all people attempting to purchase this person didn't violate the law.

I'm 66 years old, should a server or clerk be fired for selling or serving me without asking for ID?

Ces, the "We Card" placards state that they must card anyone who looks under the age of 40.

OP is only 21, so even on his roughest day, he won't look 40.

ces1948 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So to the original poster, did you mention that
> you are of legal drinking age but the server was
> fired because they didn't ask for your ID? Unless
> the laws in your area require the carding of all
> people attempting to purchase this person didn't
> violate the law.
>
> I'm 66 years old, should a server or clerk be
> fired for selling or serving me without asking for
> ID?

The server was not fired for violating the law. He was fired for violating the restaurant chain's requirement that servers card patrons under 30 (35? at some restaurants it is 40) before serving alcoholic beverages. Because restaurants are subject to such serious sanctions if someone underage is served, the restaurant chain employs mystery shoppers to do compliance checks to be sure that their own employee requirements are being followed. Because they do not want any violations of the law, they deliberately hire mystery shoppers who are old enough to legally drink but are young enough that company policy requires that they be carded. That way, if the server cards the mystery shopper before serving alcohol, everything is wonderful. If the server does NOT card the guest before serving alcohol, no law has been broken as a minor has not actually been served. However, the restaurant's requirement has been ignored, and in many establishments, that means immediate termination for the server. This is not a surprise to the servers - they are told that not carding means immediate termination and their are frequently reminded.

And, yes - I personally think 66 year olds should be carded. It would certainly get rid of a lot of the "maybe the dog ate my homework" arguments are why someone did not card. If there were a requirement to card EVERY patron, regardless of age, who orders alcohol, it would simplify things. Last time I dined at the Bar at TGI Friday's with my 30 year old son, he and I were BOTH carded before alcohol was served. The bartender was personable, polite and courteous, and neither of us minded showing ID.

dmh426 and SunnyDays2, I agree with you 100%, as a MS one should not feel bad for getting someone fired who does not do their job. Drunk people become weapons when they get in a car.

I've done these same TGIF shops multiple times. Fortunately, I was carded every single time.

There were other more intense bar integrity shops for other MSC's I contracted for where I experienced a lot worse. In my case, the bartender was over-pouring top shelf alcohol to two customers at the bar. After 3-4 drinks, I looked over and saw those two were only changes <$10 for all their drinks. It was then I realized that there was a large cash tip the bartender collected from them and placed it in the tip jar.

I haven't shopped there again, but might when I see a bonus pop up for the location. I still wonder if this bartender's still working there after that experience.

I have never done compliance jobs, but I have done bar integrity jobs and am pretty sure I got one bartender fired for not carding people who looked barely old enough to be out of school. In this case, I was required to report it over the phone to the MSC immediately upon leaving. As this was at a locale that I frequent often (before and after) as a non-shopper, I have not seen the bartender since.

As a former bartender, I take ID cardings seriously. It only takes a second. I carded anybody that looked like they were 40 or younger, regardless of facial hair, gray hair, etc.

Speaking of new agey terms what about "spork" anyway? Although good in theory I find them impractical.

A bit of trivia...

"Spork" originated with Gene Roddenberry, the Executive Producer of Star Trek. In some of the early production meetings, it was discussed having all Vulcan names begin with "Sp" and end with "k". Roddenberry suggested a Vulcan law firm of "Splek, Speek, and Spork".

My apologies for the hijack.

The employee knows they are shopped, it's not a secret. Neglect to card or being in a hurry to turn tables, is not an excuse. If they do their job correctly, there would not be any problems.