I don't want to dredge up the naive post I made about video equiptment and this industry, as there seems to be a monopoly of one companies equiptment and I can see the MSC's desire to standardise and keep it simple by expecting one single audio and video format to keep things as easy as possible for them to process.

I have audio and possibly video shops all around me for apartments and retirement communities and would like to present a sample clip that is in EXACTLY the same format as what the MSC recieves now, so they have no trouble processing my sample clip.

There is no secret video format. There is no special body worn DVR. There is no special pinhole button camera. There are standards and no one companies DVR is a holy grail or so special that it deserves to be the only unit used.

The only difference would be in the font and exact location of the date and timestamp in the video from one manufacturer and another after the recording formats are matched exactly.

If people with different models of the old and newest "standard" camera and PVR and audio recorders could install this freeware program and select a recording they have made and paste the text output showing the EXACT format that the program output box shows and state the model PVR and camera or audio unit, I'd be most gratefull.

[mediaarea.net]

It's as simple as running the program and selecting a clip and cut and pasting the output text box.

You don't need to understand what any of it's output means. A simple paste of the output box would be all I need to have my audio and video match it perfectly.

I can then submit a sample clip to MSC's in EXACTLY the same format they desire and are expecting to process it with the current units.

If someone can share even a 10 second clip of what is the standard on a dropbox account or any other means and PM me the link, that would be even better.

I know this is a hot button issue for some people that are video shoppers and think there is only one branded video camera and DVR on the planet that will meet the needs of MSC's.

Give me a sample of this golden standard and then let me fail or not when I submit my video sample to MSC's and let them decide if my body worn camera and audio is equal or better.

It's hard to achieve this standard without knowing what it is. I will share my results with the community as I submit test clips and let the MSC's determine if my video as well as the much cost reduced hardware I use to achieve the same results will meet their standards.

The only people that I see that will IMMEDIATLY OBJECT to this are:

1. Current video shoppers that will face more competition as the cost of entry will be lowered.
2. The resellers of the current equiptment, as this will create competition in a monopoly enviroment.

I doubt the actual MSC's will object to my video sample. If I match the same quality and format they are recieving now, they will either accept or deny my application to video shop.

Keep points one and two in mind when you read the replies to this post.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 04:18AM by scanman1.

You need to go to a MS conference or take the online workshop offered through IMSC. Asking for sample videos so you can try to beat the system is not a smart move. The videos are the property of the MSC and/or client so no one in their right mind would turn over their videos to you.

And why are you obsessed with reinventing the wheel? Most of the MSCs with video shops make you fill out an application and you have to list what equipment you have. There is an industry standard for a reason.

I will exactly match the industry standard. The video I ask for is a video that is recorded *OUTSIDE* of a job and can be as simple as turning on the camera and pointing it at a tree and saying "test 1, 2, 3".

Why are you so determined to see me fail? Is it Point #1?

Do you really think I could not manage to keep a camera pointed at my subject without this class?

I'd bet a good portion of the class is in the operation and hidden placement of the camera and dvr.

Let me fail on my own. I'm just asking for the video spec's.

I can share my findings with people that have passed this course and have failed hardware, or would like to have an inexpensive backup unit.

And why do you think there needs to be a "System"?

Either you can do the shop or you cannot.

Having the hardware is not what makes or breaks someones ability to do an assignment under pressure.

I have already taken an assignment where I went into wholesale shop and needed a good backstory for the jobber position and had business cards made up and sent to me to get in the door.

This type of shop is more demanding than what I see for most video shops.

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 05:34AM by scanman1.

I gave you helpful advice about conferences and workshops for video training. Knowledge can be a wonderful thing. I just don't like your attitude about bending the rules to suit your needs.

EDITED TO ADD: Also there is no need to quote the person you are responding to when your post will be directly under their post. And there is no need to quote the entire post, just highlight the relevant sections. This has been mentioned several times throughout the forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 05:15AM by Shop2LiveinFL.

The classes offer valuable insight, like how to naturally match your subject's body movements...which comes in handy on apartment shops, where I swear the salespeople are taught to bob and weave.

They also teach you things like..., when doing say, a campus shop....avoid areas like lecture halls and computer centers to let them give their pitch, as it can cause audio distortion or interference. You're better off peeking in, but holding the conversation in the hallway.

They also teach things like 'checks', troubleshooting, etc.

You might be a wiz when it comes to all things techy, but video shopping has very little to do with the tech, and very much to do with being supremely conscious of your body, its movements, and reading tells on your subject, to anticipate their moves and turns before they make them, so you can constantly be micro adjusting to match them without seeming like a dancing puppet.

I'm not against taking a workshop. I am against a hardware monopoly. If I failed my first shop for not focusing the camera on the subject, I'd be more than open to taking a course.

You have already given me many good points to consider. Thank you.

Very well put, Bbird0701.

The reason for the hardware monopoly is because it's considered a "safe" choice. They know what they're going to get, before they get it. It's tried and been proven true and trusty. By that, I mean, the audio and video quality. The rest of it... the majority of the quality of the shop depends on you.

You could have the most cutting edge gadget on the planet, but there could be a whole lot more unknowns than knowns with it... issues to work out in later versions, glitches, etc. The PV500 is SAFE for them. When they're pitching video shops to a potential client, they're showing PV-500 videos most likely, saying "This is what you're going to get."

I'm really not trying to be confrontational.

I am just not willing to accept that brand "A" is the only way to go.

I'm not disputing the fact that workshops can be helpfull.

I still feel that point #1 is the main issue at hand here.

If you want to practice... video shop on a non-video shop. Review it later, note where you screwed up, note how you can improve. You'd be surprised at all of the obstacles you encounter... Banker offers you a beverage when you sit down to talk about an investment account, and there's nowhere to put the beverage except right in your cam's line of sight. So, while a normal customer might accept the beverage, and you're trained in that line of thought... you decline the beverage... and you're processing all of that in about .0005 of a second.

Or visiting a timeshare, and the sales person sits down on the sofa next to you to go over various timeshare plans. How do you adjust? Or getting a salesperson whose office is covered in plants, and when you sit down, you can see their ear and part of one eye, but not much else, so you know your cam is picking up squat. What do you do?

There are a billion more examples I could give. Practice and training are what makes a good video shop, not the latest and greatest of equipment.

Yes, and you can put a PV-500 in my shakey hands and I'd fail just the same.

What if after I completed this research and could provide a cost effective backup PVR unit for sale to experienced video shoppers such as yourself that were pin compatable to the existing camera's you use on your existing PV-500 unit?

How would that make you feel?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 05:50AM by scanman1.

Okay, to answer Point 1....

That equipment is the standard. The base ingredient. The baseline. The foundation. It is the mark by which video shops are set. It is safe, it is tried and been proven reliable. Reliability is everything.

To think of it in shopper terms... two shoppers apply for the same shop. One has a proven, long-standing record of being reliable. The other has not performed any shops. It's very close to shop deadline... who is the scheduler going to choose?

As with all shops, you have to prove yourself.

I'd like a stab at it on the 1st of the month, when the shop can be repeated several times.

Let me sink or swim.

I want to be tossed into the deep end of the pool.

scanman1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What if after I completed this research and could
> provide a cost effective backup PVR unit for sale
> to experienced video shoppers such as yourself
> that were pin compatable to the existing camera's
> you use on your existing PV-500 unit?
>
> How would that make you feel?


It would make me feel like you are here just to try to sell us something and make some money for yourself. That won't fly around here.

Goodness... you're missing the point. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know.

I'm not talking about YOU and your video shops.

I gave the above as an example, a metaphor for the equipment, the reason for the hardware monopoly. They do NOT want to take chances on new equipment that doesn't have a longstanding history of being reliable. It's really that simple.

The Catch-22 in that, is that, because of that, it's not given a chance to build or prove a longstanding history of being reliable.

But... that's the way it is, it's a solid business decision, and there's nothing you can do to change it.

BBird, I think he is another one of those posters who just likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Let him build his own spaceship to Mars.

I almost accept that as a challenge. Saying there is nothing that anyone can do to change it.

I have heard that before. Things do change. Especially when it comes to technology.

I worked for a telecommunications company that involved me working on equiptment that was cutting edge one minute and then trying to keep equiptment alive that was over 20 years old in the same hour.

I'd be slinging a fiber optic cable one minute, and then working on a T1 outatage and leaving a 30 meter fiber laying on the floor for a coworker to trip over.

I'm used to people telling me what cannot be done, or telling me that this old way of doing something will never change. I have proven them wrong time and time again.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 06:07AM by scanman1.

Well that's wonderful for you and all, but you don't work for the MSC. You're an independent contractor, so you'll either accept their terms or don't. That's the way it works in this business. You have ZERO leverage, so yeah... good luck with the challenge.

I'm an engineer, so I actually do work on some cutting edge stuff, but the funny thing.... We use tried and true methods and tools to create and work on cutting edge stuff. You know why.....because it's proven and reliable.

This thread is like herding cats at this point.

The MSC's have not weighed in, and I'm still just asking someone to PM me the video settings with that freeware program.

Yes, I'm hard headed.

I'll do some practice shops with the same video spec's and submit sample video's to several MSC's and let them decide if they will reject me for not conforming to the old standard.


As you mentioned, I am an independant contractor and the MSC is the one who decides if what I present to them is acceptable material, not the other shoppers on this forum.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 07:11AM by scanman1.

Why not present it to them as it is, without running it through some sketchy program so it can mimic an acceptable format?

I have several firmwares I can program into the PVR device, and I want to present the MSC the video format that is exactly what the gold standard is using.

I could use h.264 compression and make the video smaller, but I want it to be as user friendly when they view it or process it as possible. I could guess what the latest pv-500 format is, but I'd rather measure it with this freeware tool.

We have made a full circle and I am simply requesting someone take a small clip of video and view it with this program and PM me or paste the "observations" of the video format that this program spits out to me.

I can then update the firmware in the recording device I have to make it exactly the same. I won't need to use any video editing or post processing as the dvr is capable of producing the same if not better quality video formats and bitrates.

Throwing the word shady around is just pure conjecture.

The video format and bitrate of a piece of video is not a classified or trade secret.

I don't even need to see the video that you select with this program, as it looks at it and just spits out a page of text that describes very objectively exactly what the video format is in plain text.

This is all I am asking for. If I have this information, then I'll be assured that the video and audio I submit will process with the current programs and settings that the MSC's are using.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 08:18AM by scanman1.

Scanman,

You will probably have to reinvent the wheel on you own.

You know everything already. You don't require our experience and opinions, just our video. Convince a MSC to lend you a camera, make some practice videos and do your thing with those videos. You don't need anyone on this forum to be successful at MS, you make that pretty clear in most of your posts.

Of course, I would let the MSC know what you plan to use their equipment for, prior to your borrowing it. Good luck with your endeavors, I am sure you will have tons of video work when your inability to present a plausible scenario is captured entirely on video. Or you can just tell the MSC you have a better idea and you will go ahead and do their work for them and send them an edited video. And in case you don't get it, there is a lot of sarcasm in that last line.

Why should anyone else do your work for you? If you don't like the information on video shopping do whatever trips your trigger, but don't ask us to participate.

I have several reasons for recommending the standard equipment and the main one is reliability. Not everyone has hundreds of dollars to waste so getting an inferior camera or one that just won't work because of formatting or other issues is a crap shoot.

And don't even start that bullshit about us being afraid of you charging less. If you go to the MSCs and undercut their set fees you will just look like an ass. You won't be stealing anyone else's business because as more qualified video shoppers have entered the field, more clients have followed. Back when there were probably less than 150 video shoppers it was too difficult to service clients with far flung locations. I've lost track of the number of new clients and new industries who are trying video now.

scanman1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is like herding cats at this point.

>^..^< >^..^< >^..^< >^..^< >^..^< >^..^< >^..^< >^..^<

scanman1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The MSC's have not weighed in, and I'm still just
> asking someone to PM me the video settings with
> that freeware program.
>
> Yes, I'm hard headed.
>
> I'll do some practice shops with the same video
> spec's and submit sample video's to several MSC's
> and let them decide if they will reject me for not
> conforming to the old standard.
>
> As you mentioned, I am an independant contractor
> and the MSC is the one who decides if what I
> present to them is acceptable material, not the
> other shoppers on this forum.


Here's are two suggestions for you...

1) Why don't you present your plans directly to the MSCs? I am sure they will welcome you with open arms and open wallets.

2) Since you already seem to know almost everything and can do it so much better than the rest of us, why don't you create your own MSC and specialize in video shops? You can be your own one man show.

I have a third suggestion but I will refrain from posting it in the forum.

scanman,
You have earlier been given the set of minimum audio and video standards published on the VSN site, and copied and pasted here to answer your question. Why not use those specs? If not those, why not use the actual specs of the currently accepted models of the PV-500? (Since using the minimum specs might not fit your needs.) Or is there a technical reason why those specs do not supply what you need to know?

If that is the case, why not borrow a PV-500 to do an actual video shop, as more newbie video shoppers would do, and shoot a 10 second clip for your own use? EPMS, and several other video MSCs will gladly ship you a rig and give you beginner's training on how to use it. Why complexify the process by asking shoppers, most of whom know nothing about editing out a small clip, to do your work?

As for time and date stamps... most MSCs want you to turn them all off; one or two want one or more of them on.

What is so strange about all of this?

The big differences among the various PV-500 models are reliability and which software to use to maximize audio quality when editing pre-2010 product vs post 2010 product. The editors at the big seven understand that audio issue; most of us shoppers do not.

Now that the most cost effective seller of the PV-500 is not a video MSC, none of them has any stake in the currently preferred rig EXCEPT reliability in the field. Therefore, none of them has anything to lose by cooperating with your efforts to bring a technical clone, of high reliability, to market. Moreover, since the equipment is not immortal, existing users do have an interest in seeing a lower price for their replacement units. Finally, you may have misjudged the economics of lower priced equipment. You see, the shortage of reliable, well trained video shoppers nationwide plays a large part in making it difficult for MSCs to market video to more, and more types of, clients. Since 2009 it is a good bet that the number of such video shoppers has quadrupled, with only minor effects of the fees being offered for long format shops like apartments, new homes, automotive sales, and assisted living. With the advent of video hotel shops (coming soon to an MSC near you) the demand for such shoppers will leap up. My feeling about comparable, reliable, less expensive equipment is "bring it on." But, why not partner with the VSN companies to be sure that what you create will suit their present and future needs?

By the way, it is not mastery of the equipment that is what causes so many to fail at video shopping, or to avoid it altogether. It is creating and maintaining an entire persona, with unique real phone number, as well as email address, and meeting the client criteria for questions to be asked or avoided, and similar things that present the greatest barrier to sucess in video shops. In essence, the shopper needs to prepared to play complex role, on stage, for 90 minutes with another actor who does not know the script but who will ask a lot of personal questions, and never contradict herself in the process. (And, above all, the shopper must never, ever, use a technical term or ask any question/make any statement that might reveal that she knows squat about the product or the industry or the process being shopped!) The next highest barrier is the need to travel extensively for long format shops because the rotation for those is "one and done." As the saying goes in manufacturing, there comes a time when you have to "shoot the enginerrs" and get on with doing the actual work. lol

I hope that you will develop a good relationship with some of the many pros who manage video MSCs. Most of them have done thousands of video shops themselves, and many have edited video from many generations of equipment. Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2014 06:12PM by walesmaven.

I believe what Scanman is attempting to do is use some of the newer digitally programmable equipment and program it to the standards of the PV-500...and right now I'm drawing a blank on the technical term for it. I have a commercial Motorola handheld radio that uses this technology. One set of channels is programmed for the local ham radio frequencies I need access to in emergencies. Another set of channels is devoted to Norfolk Southern, and the third band has CSX Transportation. Those frequencies are receive only since I have no need to transmit on those railroad frequencies. I also have the three frequencies used by the Red Springs and Northern RR that I can transmit on when I help out on their passenger excursions. The point is, with the proper software, I can make the radio do whatever I want, or need, it to, and it's all FCC legal. The cost reduction comes in by being able to design a general circuit and use the program to set the specifics you need. Imagine a radio that you could program to only receive your favorite stations, as well as the audio portion of your favorite TV stations, and that is close to what I'm describing.

A rather poor analogy would be to take a Nikon D5100 and program it so the output is broadcast quality TV.

While I would never want to rely on a clone as my only DVR, it is something I would consider as a backup if my primary equipment failed.

How close did I come, Scanman?

Video shopping equipment is a big investment for our shoppers so before any company recommends a product we will make certain it has been well tested. The camera and DVR quality is important as well as battery life, storage capacity, concealment, and reliability. I need to be certain the shoppers we send to spend 1 1/2 + hours with a high end sales rep has the equipment concealed properly achieving perfect camera angles, as my clients expect. They will spot it if it's not concealed well. The type of equipment you have will also help me determine what types of shops you are qualified for. We won't allow a pen camera to be used for new home shops for example. We will never assign any video shops to be conducted with a phone either. (I won't go into the whys here, so shoot me an email if you need to know.)

We welcome new technology. I would love to get every shopper suited with approved video shopping equipment at an affordable price. If there is something new out there that we don't know about, email me and I'll share it with the other companies at VSN. If the specs are comparable we will certainly look into it.

Quality can be sacrificed each time a video is rendered to other formats. So I recommend sending us a demo in the original recorded format and let's just take a look at what you have. Remember simplicity is super important as well, so we don't want everyone having to jump through hoops to get us the correct format. The info@ email address on our website goes to me. Request and I'll send upload instructions for a demo. **Typically we will not ask for a demo until we have work to assign, but if you have questions about acceptable equipment, we don't mind taking a look at it.

I highly recommend training with either the IMSC or Video Shopping Pros. Not only are you recording what the employee has to say, but you are also recording YOUR performance on video for our clients. A client will decline a shop over the shopper's performance just as easily as for bad camera angles. Learning the equipment is the easy part.

Leslie Jeter
Clear Evaluations

@ Leslie CE ~ Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. I have to ask. Do you believe that shoppers should be giving out samples of their work to the OP?

He is not asking for samples of your work. He is asking you to run a sample of your work through a program that identifies all of the setting for the video. Much like a program that would read the EXIF info from a photograph. Basically he wants to be able to take the video from a PV500 and either have his equipment create the exact same spec of video or convert whatever his equipment creates into the same spec of video. He needs to know a lot of information from a sample video to be able to do that.

Also Leslie is spectacular and you (scanman) should listen to what she has to say.