Age discrimination??
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IIRC the age discrimination laws do not apply to independent contractors.
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Have PV-500 & willing to travel.
"Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard." (The Fourth Doctor, The Face of Evil, 1977)
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue.” J. Andrew Taylor
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." Galileo Galilei
Have PV-500 & willing to travel.
"Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard." (The Fourth Doctor, The Face of Evil, 1977)
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue.” J. Andrew Taylor
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." Galileo Galilei
Perhaps not but I wasn't looking to sue them.
I wasn't inferring that you were intending legal action. As independent contractors, they don't have to justify to us why they are doing something.
If you would really like to continue the shops, perhaps a professional letter to the MSC owner, highlighting your record, and asking for an exemption to the age requirement, could work.
If you would really like to continue the shops, perhaps a professional letter to the MSC owner, highlighting your record, and asking for an exemption to the age requirement, could work.
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Have PV-500 & willing to travel.
"Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard." (The Fourth Doctor, The Face of Evil, 1977)
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue.” J. Andrew Taylor
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." Galileo Galilei
Have PV-500 & willing to travel.
"Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard." (The Fourth Doctor, The Face of Evil, 1977)
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue.” J. Andrew Taylor
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." Galileo Galilei
Years ago I did a shop with an age restriction of 65 so when I reached 65 I stopped. Then, I began getting phone calls asking me to do the shop. During the conversation I would remind them of the age restriction and the reply would be "What restriction?"
I did write to the scheduler and pointed out the age requirement and was assigned the audits. The question remains why the upper age limit is even there on these completely revealed audits. They're asking you to report the contents of 4-5 rows of products and take a couple of pictures. Did my ability to do that stop when I turned 67?
In many cases, the client's specifications are the reason for a demographic requirement, including age. When the client is targeting a particular demographic group, the MSC is usually required to provide that demographic group. In cases of a particularly hard job to fill, sometimes the demographic requirements are waived briefly. Sometimes, an MSC will assign shops to a shopper who does not meet the demographics but they are required to take an extra step (making the shopper request to be assigned) because the client prefers a certain age, gender, economic group, etc.
Austin Mom, I fully understand the necessity of having a certain age group mystery shop a certain store or product but I just don't see how that applies in this case. On this audit you wear an identification badge into the store, present a LOA to management and record the contents of a specific display. The products in this display are not age specific in any way.
@James Bond 007.5 I'm not trying to be argumentative but that seems a bit questionable and somewhat of a slippery slope. It's ok to baselessly (presumably) discriminate by age because we are ICs but what if they said "no black people?"
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Seriously, nobody cares that you're offended.
Seriously, nobody cares that you're offended.
As independent contractors, we do not have to give up all our rights and others do not get a free pass to discriminate at will. Reading only legislation as written is not enough. You also have to read case law. Halpert v. Manhattan Apartments is a good example.
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
@LJ wrote:
As independent contractors, we do not have to give up all our rights and others do not get a free pass to discriminate at will. Reading only legislation as written is not enough. You also have to read case law. Halpert v. Manhattan Apartments is a good example.
Hmmm, does give me some leverage to obtain shops for clients that require their shoppers to be female?
Shopping the Greater Denver Area, Colorado Springs and in-between in Colorado. 33 year old male and willing to travel!
states could potentially try to make laws regarding this..but I don't see how they could be enforced and would likely be over turned if challanged....
generally age discrimination employment laws only apply to regular employees, not contractors...
it can still be called discrimination....but not illegal discrimination...
there was a college bookstore shop--that cuts off at 40....there are people that go back to school after 40...i would if i could
generally age discrimination employment laws only apply to regular employees, not contractors...
it can still be called discrimination....but not illegal discrimination...
there was a college bookstore shop--that cuts off at 40....there are people that go back to school after 40...i would if i could
Let's say I want to hire someone to paint my house. One of the people who gives me a bid is 45, well-built, healthy, and looks great in tight jeans. The other is 75 or overweight or black or ugly as a mud fence or coughs constantly or shows 4 inches of butt crack when he bends over to pick up his tool box. Both bid the same price, or maybe the second one bids less, doesn't matter.
It's entirely my choice which i want to hire.
The second one has no claim against me for discriminating based on his age, weight, race, aesthetics, or handicap status. I'm hiring him to paint my house and I can decide who I want to watch on that ladder for the next week.
It doesn't matter that both have been painting for 20 years and do an excellent job and have excellent references. I get to choose. Period.
We are contractors. We're not being discriminated against by our sole source of income as would be the case in an employment situation; we're being discriminated against by one out of 100 or more companies. It's their right, just like it's our right to discriminate against ACE for using Payquicker, or Intellishop for trampling our egos, or GfK for their incessant testing, or CoRI for being cheap, or anyone else for any reason we like.
It's entirely my choice which i want to hire.
The second one has no claim against me for discriminating based on his age, weight, race, aesthetics, or handicap status. I'm hiring him to paint my house and I can decide who I want to watch on that ladder for the next week.
It doesn't matter that both have been painting for 20 years and do an excellent job and have excellent references. I get to choose. Period.
We are contractors. We're not being discriminated against by our sole source of income as would be the case in an employment situation; we're being discriminated against by one out of 100 or more companies. It's their right, just like it's our right to discriminate against ACE for using Payquicker, or Intellishop for trampling our egos, or GfK for their incessant testing, or CoRI for being cheap, or anyone else for any reason we like.
Time to build a bigger bridge.
That might be a different outcome if when you advertised your painting job you stated "No one over 65" or No African -Americans" or "No Disabled" will be allowed to bid which is basically what this company is doing.
@dspeakes wrote:
Let's say I want to hire someone to paint my house. One of the people who gives me a bid is 45, well-built, healthy, and looks great in tight jeans. The other is 75 or overweight or black or ugly as a mud fence or coughs constantly or shows 4 inches of butt crack when he bends over to pick up his tool box. Both bid the same price, or maybe the second one bids less, doesn't matter.
It's entirely my choice which i want to hire.
The second one has no claim against me for discriminating based on his age, weight, race, aesthetics, or handicap status. I'm hiring him to paint my house and I can decide who I want to watch on that ladder for the next week.
It doesn't matter that both have been painting for 20 years and do an excellent job and have excellent references. I get to choose. Period.
We are contractors. We're not being discriminated against by our sole source of income as would be the case in an employment situation; we're being discriminated against by one out of 100 or more companies. It's their right, just like it's our right to discriminate against ACE for using Payquicker, or Intellishop for trampling our egos, or GfK for their incessant testing, or CoRI for being cheap, or anyone else for any reason we like.
Just talk to your scheduler. I am over 65 and if I think the age matters, I just call and ask. No problem! I have never been outed for my age. I don't apply if the job states 35.
@ces1948 wrote:
That might be a different outcome if when you advertised your painting job you stated "No one over 65" or No African -Americans" or "No Disabled" will be allowed to bid which is basically what this company is doing.
We are contractors. We are not employees. Employment laws do not apply to us at all. It might offend someone if I ran a Craigslist ad saying "Wanted, house painter. Preference for 25-45 year old buff male caucasian or latino, preferably tall, dark, and Italian, must look good in tight jeans and be single and straight" but nobody's going to be able to prosecute me over it. They might think I'm a whackjob, but it's not illegal to be a whackjob.
in the case of an audit, probably a simple phone call will get a waiver on the 66 year old barrier. But if it doesn't, go do something else instead.
We fret about our rights but nobody has the "right" to any particular job. The MSC and the client have the right to decide who to give it to, just as we have the right to decide not to work for a company.
Time to build a bigger bridge.
@ces1948 wrote:
That might be a different outcome if when you advertised your painting job you stated "No one over 65" or No African -Americans" or "No Disabled" will be allowed to bid which is basically what this company is doing.
But what if you said in your ad "No butt cracks!" Dspeaks you really made my day with that image.
On the serious side though, I can sometimes understand the need for a younger person for a particular job but most of the time I do not see the reason and it is sad and annoying. That said, I did call the msc on a job I have avoided for two years since they lowered the age to 50. My son was in town who is 25 and I asked if I could do it if I brought him along. (It's an upscale Beer and Food restaurant). They gave it to me gladly as no one had asked for it and told me I should have asked for that job sooner. There is another shop where the training cut off was 55. When I applied I told them I was only a few months short of that age but I have been doing that job for 3 years now even though I am too old.
My guess is that the client wants to ensure its auditors can ambulate, bend, kneel, etc. without trouble, in order to avoid any general liability. Of course, most 67 year olds have no problem with these activities, but some likely do. If you have done these before, I'm sure they are confident you can do all of the above. Thus the waiver.
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The harder I work, the luckier I get.
The harder I work, the luckier I get.
There are also tons of shops that have income or FICO score requirements. Isn't that discrimination too? Nobody seems to be objecting to those requirements at all. Or the under-25 requirement for the lucrative compliance shops that never seem to get done in my town because both of the shoppers here are several decades too old for that. And yet these are the requirements for the shop. And the client sets them.
(And I do agree with OP about the illogic of the age barrier for a revealed audit. But that's still up to the client.)
Maybe think of the demographics as a sort of "casting call" for a part that needs to be played. if this isn't your role, something else will be.
(And I do agree with OP about the illogic of the age barrier for a revealed audit. But that's still up to the client.)
Maybe think of the demographics as a sort of "casting call" for a part that needs to be played. if this isn't your role, something else will be.
Time to build a bigger bridge.
IMO neither credit score, income requirements, or being under or over a certain age is in the same ballpark with the age requirement for a revealed upfront simple audit. There are valid reasons for the first three, none for the last one.
How about the scheduler who is tasked with the job of finding shoppers with a certain "look.". I've never asked who the client is but am betting it's Abercrombie and Fitch as the CEO has publicly stated he does not want "ugly people" shopping in his stores.
The trendy bar shops need someone who fits the demographics of the clientèle.
A mall shop like Spencer gifts requires a younger shopper. I don't see where your need for a gag gift card diminishes with age, but the client has parameters and they are the ones to decide what an "average" customer demographic is. I'm too old to shop them, yet I buy things there as I am a real nut when it comes to gifts. I love to make someone blush.
An open audit should not age discriminate, yet I bet they have insurance issues with a slip and fall if the shopper is older and possible has stability or health issues and it can come back on the insurance of the company of you were in the back of the shop and they had a spill and you fell and injured yourself in a food preparation type audit. I have done an audit where the floor was slippery and I literally started sliding with both feet till I grabbed onto something!
A mall shop like Spencer gifts requires a younger shopper. I don't see where your need for a gag gift card diminishes with age, but the client has parameters and they are the ones to decide what an "average" customer demographic is. I'm too old to shop them, yet I buy things there as I am a real nut when it comes to gifts. I love to make someone blush.
An open audit should not age discriminate, yet I bet they have insurance issues with a slip and fall if the shopper is older and possible has stability or health issues and it can come back on the insurance of the company of you were in the back of the shop and they had a spill and you fell and injured yourself in a food preparation type audit. I have done an audit where the floor was slippery and I literally started sliding with both feet till I grabbed onto something!
A& F take anybody for the shop, it does not require any look.@whiterosie wrote:
How about the scheduler who is tasked with the job of finding shoppers with a certain "look.". I've never asked who the client is but am betting it's Abercrombie and Fitch as the CEO has publicly stated he does not want "ugly people" shopping in his stores.
Then I wonder which one it is. I know there is one where the client is very picky about looks. Of course with A&F you have to be a small size and with Lane Bryant you have to be a larger size.
@dspeakes wrote:
There are also tons of shops that have income or FICO score requirements. Isn't that discrimination too?
Of course that's not discrimination. We are talking about a combination of federal discrimination laws, Civil Rights Acts, constitutional law, etc. dealing with "protected classes". Those classes include age, gender, national origin, race, etc.
Those of us who have worked with laws in one capacity or another know that you can't paint everything with such a broad brush. It isn't as simple as just playing the independent contractor card, and comparing a person hiring a buff dude to paint their house is a lot different from Walmart taking bids from white-only parking lot painters.
A business systematically discriminating against members of protected classes for no legitimate reason could potentially be setting themselves up for litigation. Win or lose? That's up to the courts, but I certainly wouldn't just shrug is off as an "independent contractor" thing.
I saw a job recently where the age restriction was 21-98. Boy am I going to raise heck when I turn 99!
Kim
@JustJenna wrote:
My guess is that the client wants to ensure its auditors can ambulate, bend, kneel, etc. without trouble, in order to avoid any general liability. Of course, most 67 year olds have no problem with these activities, but some likely do. If you have done these before, I'm sure they are confident you can do all of the above. Thus the waiver.
I'm 58 and my knees sucked when I was 10. So if it's all about able to ambulate, I get it. I recently had to take a pic for a revealed audit and not only did my knees make the crunchy sound...it took some effort to get myself upright. My knees don't do this on a regular basis, but it's embarrassing when they decide to lock up. I own livestock, so flinging 50lb feed bags happens often, it has nothing to do with my body being out of shape. Some days my knees just give out. My knees give out at the grocery store and I fall down, they aren't sore. I have no indicators that they will give out, they just do it. And they've done it since I was 10.
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning; the devil shudders...And yells OH #%*+! SHE'S AWAKE!
discrimination is not only limited to protected groups...only ILLEGAL discrimination is limited to protected groups....
in many cases it is perfectly acceptable to be discriminating.
say for example, a boss is taking a staff member out to lunch. He is atheist and will not go to any restaurants owned/associated by entities that are openly religious (ie chick fil e). He is disciminating based on religion, but not illegally.
in many cases it is perfectly acceptable to be discriminating.
say for example, a boss is taking a staff member out to lunch. He is atheist and will not go to any restaurants owned/associated by entities that are openly religious (ie chick fil e). He is disciminating based on religion, but not illegally.
Discerning requirements do not bother me. The client is looking for a certain for a specific demographic. I work for one MSC that requires a picture of you.
As I recently posted in another thread, I was not assigned a job because I was the wrong color or ethnic background. The shop was in an area of town that was primarily one ethnic group and I did not fit the clients demographic.
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