@Kimmy1971 wrote:

To the comment "she has been a member of the MS forum for 3 1/2 years, really @Flash?? You have time to know this?? She was venting AND seeking helpful advice through positive feedback, did I misunderstand the original thought behind the forum???? If you can't be helpful AND respectful, move along.

Quite frankly, when someone accuses a company of being at fault in their post title with no evidence to support it, I DO look at their public profile. This shopper joined the forum on 11/15/12. Posts prior to the current debacle were asking for a street address to send Freeman a certified letter and complaints that EPMS was disrespectful. And now Coyle is disrespectful too. Complaints that the forum did not support him/her or their claims. Really? This forum does not need to knock itself out coddling and stroking those who falsely accuse and with no indication at all that Coyle was in any way 'untruthful', that is what this poster has done. One can perhaps excuse this with someone still 'wet behind the ears' in this business, but this poster has been grinding an axe since 2012 on the forum with no positive contribution. When they threaten to leave because we are not responsive to their disrespecting still another MSC and us, it is very tempting to say, "Have a good day and don't let the door hit you in the rear on the way out."

@mysterynurse wrote:

I just wish that if I weren't accepted for a job, they would say so, rather than letting it sit there.

Sometimes they're not able to assign the job(s) immediately. For instance, for their new hotel client, they hit their limit of hotel assignments with the client for this month, and were not able to schedule more assignments. There's always next month.

@Professional Guest wrote:

That all depends.

I've stayed at five-star resorts at exotic locations with folios that sometimes reach five figures, and on the high-end, average out at $3,000.00 a night. Worth it for hours and hours (with hours put in even before departure to the property), and pages and pages of work? Yes, absolutely.

*** Edited to add a comma between "end" and "average".

Thanks for your response. I knew the reports had to be ridiculous, but when you are valuing your time based on value received and that received value is very high, I can understand the willingness to put in the time and energy. Just a few more questions though: Did you feel you really had time to enjoy the resort while you were there? How much time every day, on average, was spent satisfying shop requirements and writing about the experience? Were you able to pospone some of the writing of the report until after you left the resort, or did you try to get it all done as you went along? I'm asking in case I ever decide I want to try one of these shops myself someday. Thank you in advance for your reply!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2016 01:39PM by nycrocks.

@Hoju wrote:

Of course experience is relevant. Coyle is not the special little flower they seem to think they are. Every company has its own special reporting style and people seem to do fine without having to prove themselves worthy over and over.

If their new-shopper requirements were as simple as only doing a shop within the first week or so of the shopping window so they can reassign it if your report is not acceptable, that would be far more palatable. Of course you're going to argue that that causes a ton of extra work for Coyle editors and schedulers, but the same would occur whether the first report is a hotel or a restaurant. It's the nature of the business. Some people aren't very good at this and you have to weed them out at some point.

It's easy to be offended when you are not selected for an assignment. I understand that.

Your supposition that I would argue over the suggestion of randomly handing out assignments and letting evaluators sink or swim is correct. As someone who used to have to call evaluators and tell them their shop was rejected, I can tell you this; The MSC does not want to decline ANY shops! As a long-time forum member, you must see the anguish that is causes shoppers when a shop gets declined. Now make that a $500 hotel stay and see how many days you spend in court fighting angry shoppers, defending yourself on social media and dealing with emails and phone calls from shoppers who are out $$$. One of the reasons I quit scheduling was the stress is caused me to deal with that. I hated every call that I ever made to decline a shop and it's probably connected to why I spend so much time helping newbies here on the forum to this day.

You also have to consider that since the narrative requirements for Coyle are so heavy, they employ a LARGE number of editors and so shops have to be evenly distributed over the month to balance the editorial load. The scheduler cannot front-load the month with newbie shoppers and let the unworthy fail. A poorly written hotel report can take an editor 8 hours to fix, while a restaurant might take 30 minutes, and every editor does their best to try to make the reports acceptable for submission. Much easier to simply require experience on easier shops and just let some be offended.

As far as experience goes; I can tell you this; When I was scheduling, I kept track of where shoppers were recruited from, their MSPA status and scores. I also recruited a lot of shoppers from Craigslist who had never shopped before. On average, a newbie shopper responding to a 'writing gigs' post on Craigslist received a much higher score on their first assignment than an experienced mystery shopper with previous hotel experience. Newbies with gold certifications also performed worse than newbies with no previous mystery shopping experience.

You can interpret that data any way you want, but my assumption was that since Coyle operates differently than most companies in many ways, those with considerable MS experience were frustrated with the differences and had trouble adapting in many instances. Shoppers with no pre-existing expectations simply read the instructions and performed the shops per the guidelines. It's less about being a good/bad shopper and more about following the specific guidelines.

I agree with you regarding Colye. i have done seven jobs for them and I decided a few months ago I would never work for them again because of the rude attitudes I constantly receive from them. For some reason, they think they have the most choice clients and that shoppers should be honored to work with them. I do resort/spa/golf resort shops for three other companies, which send me on 5 star assignments and give me high marks. Each one of these companies have professional editors that seek out win/win situations, treating me with respect. This is not true with Coyle's staff. Also, their reports are very time consuming--more work, less pay and shops I can do with other companies--why work (be exploited) for Coyle??

@nycrocks wrote:

Thanks for your response. I knew the reports had to be ridiculous, but when you are valuing your time based on value received and that received value is very high, I can understand the willingness to put in the time and energy. Just a few more questions though: Did you feel you really had time to enjoy the resort while you were there? How much time every day, on average, was spent satisfying shop requirements and writing about the experience? Were you able to pospone some of the writing of the report until after you left the resort, or did you try to get it all done as you went along? I'm asking in case I ever decide I want to try one of these shops myself someday. Thank you in advance for your reply!

I have been in a similar situation where I experienced both sides - enjoyed the hotel stay and felt stressed because of reports. A couple of times at the beginning, when I was overly excited (and overestimated), I also did shops outside of the hotel. In the end, it did not feel as if I enjoyed my stay. I have now learned to just stick with one shop/assignment per resort stay. I put in some time in the morning and/or evening, maybe an hour or so, to write notes or answer the tick boxes. All of these small things makes a HUGE difference when you are writing the final report. But it is all based on your preference. Writing the report after the resort stay is a huge let down (for me at least), so I did a bit of work while at the resort and told myself that enjoying the resort is my reward for working a little each day. When I did the report after the resort, there was nothing to look forward to except pages and pages of detail oriented narratives.

@nycrocks wrote:

@Professional Guest wrote:

That all depends.

I've stayed at five-star resorts at exotic locations with folios that sometimes reach five figures, and on the high-end, average out at $3,000.00 a night. Worth it for hours and hours (with hours put in even before departure to the property), and pages and pages of work? Yes, absolutely.

Thanks for your response. I knew the reports had to be ridiculous, but when you are valuing your time based on value received and that received value is very high, I can understand the willingness to put in the time and energy. Just a few more questions though: Did you feel you really had time to enjoy the resort while you were there? How much time every day, on average, was spent satisfying shop requirements and writing about the experience? Were you able to pospone some of the writing of the report until after you left the resort, or did you try to get it all done as you went along? I'm asking in case I ever decide I want to try one of these shops myself someday. Thank you in advance for your reply!

Again, that all depends.

Yes, I have time to enjoy the property and its amenities, HOWEVER depending on the property, the length of stay and the client you can be working all day satisfying the survey requirements.

For instance:

Arrival - Security
Arrival - Valet
Arrival - Front Desk
Arrival - Bell
Arrival - Room Acclimation
Arrival - Room Inspection - Housekeeping and Engineering (capture approximately 10 images, more if you're in a suite, even more if you find defects)

Data Speed Test

Engineering Request
Housekeeping Request

Public Areas Inspection

F & B - Reservation
F & B - Bar
F & B - Host
F & B - Food
F & B - Dining Room

Turndown - Tests, Capturing Images - Before and After

PBX Wake Up Call Request

AND THIS IS JUST FOR THE DAY OF ARRIVAL

PBX Wake Up Call Receipt

Room Service - Call
Room Service - Receipt
Room Service - Capture Images (covers on, covers off)
Room Service - Tray Removal

Stayover Service (if multiple days booked) - Tests, Capturing Images - Before and After

Activity 1 - write about it

Spa - Reservation
Spa - Arrival
Spa - Housekeeping/Engineering
Spa - Treatment(s)
Spa - Retail Purchase
Spa - Departure

F & B Lunch- Reservation
F & B Lunch - Host
F & B Lunch- Food
F & B Lunch - Dining Room

Interactions - Concierge/Bell/Front Desk (yes, all of them)

Public Areas Inspection

Pool - Housekeeping
Pool - Engineering
Pool - Interaction
Pool - Possible additional F & B

Bell - Departure

Front Desk Departure

Valet Departure

And that's it for a typical one-night stay for a resort/property that has numerous amenities that the client would like tested. There are additional things that you may be testing, such as transportation to (and from) the property, a guided tour, golf, etc.

More nights? Add F & B for dinner and another possible bar/lounge, turn down service and a PBX wake up call request and do it all again, without the Spa and Pool tests.

So, as you can see, you will be busy. Sometimes it seems like my guest and I are eating all day long. I write up an itinerary prior to departure for my assignments with multiple nights because there are so many outlets/services that need to be tested.

I would not count on very much free time on your first hotel assignment. That being said, most of the tests are are quite enjoyable - What's that? You would like me to enjoy a drink and a meal at a beautiful dining outlet and keep the check to under $300.00? I can do that!

I find that I must work/write throughout my stay and still work hours and hours when I return, and put in quite a bit of time writing and planning before arrival. Now, throw traveling back home, from your international or domestic destination and you can see why it's necessary, at least for me, to write and work throughout my stay. That's me. I can not afford to have an assignment rejected, especially when room rates are typically over $500.00/night, typically much more. YMMV.

Hope this helps give you an idea of the scope of work required when completing assignments for Coyle. It's definitely not 8-hour days. It's 18+-hour days, devoted to diligently working to put out an objective, well-written, well-thought out and well-supported evaluation, with multiple narratives, accompanying images and supporting documentation that provides value and insight to the client(s), and then being available the next few days to answer/clarify any follow up questions the client and/or support team may have.

Here are two threads that you might find useful besides the thread that SteveSoCal started for Coyle:

[www.mysteryshopforum.com]
[www.mysteryshopforum.com]

Good luck!

It is good for shoppers to realize that there are many levels of hotel shops. I have done some that required little more than observations of check-in courtesies and a quick impression of the room to checks for de-branding that no materials of the former chain were still in use to simple check lists evaluating basics to in-depth, whole facility evaluations such as mentioned above.

I used to do the in-depth, whole facility evaluations for Freeman and between the pre-planning preparation, the travel to and from the facility and the utter exhaustion once the final submit was hit, I found that roughly there were 3 days + the day(s) at the facility that the visit fees needed to cover. So a 2 night stay needed to pay the equivalent of about 5 days of shops. I did not find that there was extra time to go off property to do anything in the location being visited. Writing reports is not something that I find difficult, but the volume of write ups is daunting and as you get into the 18-20 hour days trying to get it all done, it gets worse and worse.

I stopped doing hotels completely, just too much work and then waiting for the reimbursement, just not worth the hassle. I do Timeshares, about 4 hours work, and a weeks vacation. I'm even finding Coyle's dinner's too much driving time and work, but I will do their lunches for a fun day in the city.

I will add that while there are hotel stays that offer the crazy schedule listed above, it's not like that for all stays. I would not take the trips that I do unless I had time each day for sightseeing and time to go out each evening.

Coyle has some great hotel clients that have limited interactions and no F&B, and those are great starter hotels. I'm now submitting those reports in under 2 hours after getting a few practice ones under my belt. They are easier than a restaurant and pay better.

Part of it is also having the experience to know what to ask on your interactions to keep the narrative limited. I no longer approach the concierge with open-ended requests or anything that required follow-up unless required. I research the neighborhood and ask a pointed question to see if they will guide me to the most appropriate location for my request, or disregard it with a generic response.

Recently, they added "two 15 minute" observations, which I find kind of a pain.

Also, on some visits, I see that the public inspections are only listed on the day of visit. But nothing for the day of departure... Does that mean we only do it once??

@LindaM wrote:

Recently, they added "two 15 minute" observations, which I find kind of a pain.

Actually, the observations are return to the old days. 10 years ago that was standard.

The manager debriefs are the newer thing that I don't like.

I think there is an important distinction that has not been made. Coyle has quite a few different hotel shops. Recently they had a round of shops that were simply checking for current logos in the hotel. Those were basically yes/no questions and photos. To me THOSE would have been excellent starter shops but no, since they were HOTELS you couldn't do them without having done food shops. Food shops that require large narratives should not be a prerequisite for shop that requires limited narratives.

As for Hoju's point about letting new shoppers sink or swim, I agree with him. Their very large new client has shops that appear to have much less interactions that the $500+ a night hotels ProfessionalGuest was talking about. No, I absolutely don't think that new shoppers should be given that type of hotel and then allowed to "sink or swim." But the new client requirements appear to actually be less than their high end food clients and the out of pocket also less. I know several that I can book for $100 and have a total folio of less than $150. And that's a report they can just look at and say yep I can work with that or nope gonna have to reject it. And it's less $$ to reject than a $300 dinner that they'll let you have before that.

To me it's their rigidness when it comes to "hotel shops" that I find even more ridiculous than anything else.

There is obviously 'no way you can win'. Sink or swim on any large out of pocket shop will raise the ire of shoppers who sink. How much is 'large'? Shoppers complain when they are out of pocket $0 but should be paid because of the time they spent going there.

Freeman used to have a different way of dealing with it. They had a job board of shops most anybody could do with at least adequate success. You only had to have been accepted by them as a shopper based on your writing sample. But no quantity of jobs from the job board would get you into the shops that were sent to the shoppers that had been thoroughly vetted by their staff and trained (after having been recommended by shoppers already in the program). In that sense, Coyle is much more 'democratic' because if you have done the restaurant criteria shops with scores high enough to show you 'get it', then you can do hotels of whatever ilk.

There are three types of hotel shoppers to me:

Lifestyle shoppers - shoppers that like staying in expensive hotels and eating expensive meals and drinking expensive alcohol.
Casual shoppers - shoppers that might grab a semi local hotel in order to get the points and a night away from home.
Reimbursement shoppers - shoppers who are there simply for the reimbursement. They need the room anyway, why not do extra work and get it paid for.

Their high end hotels appeal to the first group. Some might appeal to the second group. But they have a huge amount of hotels from their newest client that do not appeal to lifestyle shoppers in the least bit. Nobody has ever considered spending the night at an LAX hotel a good time. They only stay there because they need a room. Those appeal to the last group, and they now have tons of them, and that last group would have very little concern if both parties knew up front what the score was. I am about to do a 4 week trip through CA. There are many nights that I absolutely cannot find a place to stay (that I'm comfortable with at least) for less than $250 a night. You think I would jump at the chance? Absolutely.

Out of curiosity, have you contacted them with your very good points about those shops? If I've learned anything in this business, MSCs will make exceptions.

My emails have always gone unanswered.

Until they have trouble filling the shops that you speak of - they are not going to try out an unvetted shopper. You spoke of an "undesirable shop by LAX" - well, I applied for that shop and didn't get it - and I am a well vetted shopper with Coyle who has done all range of shops, including the luxury shops that are the most coveted, (just a week ago - I had 10 hotels in my "to do" assigned list) and I still didn't get it. We can debate the "fairness" of Coyle's system until the cows come home, but the reality is - they have a ton of shoppers in their database that want to work with them. They will schedule you for something and take a chance at you if they cannot get anyone else to do it. Planning a road trip through Madagascar and willing to take a one-night shop with no travel and the same flat fee that everyone else is going to get to go into SF or NYC? I am pretty sure they would take a risk on you for that one. Otherwise - their game/their rules. These are not sitting out on the board there because they cannot find anyone to do it, but rather there is such a volume of shops they cannot keep up with the pace of scheduling them.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2016 05:15AM by MickeyB.

That may perhaps be true, but if so why did they go to the IMSC conference 2 years ago and then complain when nobody came to their table? I obviously can't speak for the rest of the world but I can tell you why I didn't, and I have a strong feeling that it was the same reason most other shoppers there didn't.

Out of all important things on their list, that is probably the least of their problems.

@bgriffin wrote:

That may perhaps be true, but if so why did they go to the IMSC conference 2 years ago and then complain when nobody came to their table? I obviously can't speak for the rest of the world but I can tell you why I didn't, and I have a strong feeling that it was the same reason most other shoppers there didn't.

I was glad to read the information provided to you regarding the rational for not assigning as I have also requested shops and have a 98% average rating with Coyle. I have only complete 3 restaurant shops which is more than likely why I continue to be overlooked. I have plenty of other work so I never took the time to ask the question as to why I was not considered. I guess it is time to suck it up and complete a few more restaurants.

@LindaM wrote:

Out of all important things on their list, that is probably the least of their problems.

@bgriffin wrote:

That may perhaps be true, but if so why did they go to the IMSC conference 2 years ago and then complain when nobody came to their table? I obviously can't speak for the rest of the world but I can tell you why I didn't, and I have a strong feeling that it was the same reason most other shoppers there didn't.

Perhaps so but 2 years ago they paid for a booth at the IMSC and I would guess several thousand $$ to have I think 4 but possibly only 3 employees at the conference. So 2 years ago getting new shoppers was at least a $5000 or so problem for them. While probably not balance sheet threatening I doubt I would classify that as "the least of their problems."

And they couldn't figure out why nobody stopped by.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2016 02:51AM by bgriffin.

I stopped at their table and explained that I was a very experienced hotel shopper, but could not drive at night and did not have a dining partner who could do so. I asked about waiving the restaurant report requirement based on my references on very high end dining when at hotel shops. They were adamant that the rule was absolutely inflexible. Without rancor, but in the interests of shopper education, I have shared that experience with many shoppers since then. They are missing some great shoppers because of lack of alternative paths to demonstrate a shopper's abilities.

So glad i read this! I've been waiting on multiple hotels, never hear anything. I actually did get a response from the generic help email address. But all they said is they are filled based on due dates and done by hand so it take time. So frustrating!

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. A little myopic are they? I thought that flexibility and the ability to move with the current conditions was the path to success.
I wonder if they have a side business selling buggy whips and 8 track tapes.
I hope the people that do shop for them hold out for huge bonuses.

Can we just agree that this is their business and they can do whatever they want? Life's not fair.

They do schedule by hand, so sometimes it takes a while to get your assignment.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2016 08:03AM by EileenS.

I am with you posters waiting to be scheduled. I receive an email long with jobs, and apply for two restaurants.
I've been waiting to hear something for about 10 days now. Problem for me is other jobs closer to me are coming which I have accepted, quick, no "playing the field", I know where I stand, etc. Why send me this email,
get my hopes up, then nothing. The jobs I accepted are great, love the food, less difficult reports, no night driving......come on Coyle, make a decision.

Coyle does like lots of narrative. I'm hopefully going to start getting more shops with them as I've done about 4 now. Not all resturaunts though- one branding shop at a hotel that was pretty easy, and the rest are a mixture of phone shops and one resturaunt. We shall see...I've never been told that rule about the shops selection though.

Krystal

I would say to put yourselves in the position of the client/scheduler when choosing to be offended by not being selected for things. They have some time on their hands to get these assignments completed, and would much prefer a proven entity, rather than take a chance on a new evaluator. Again...don't most business, and especially MSC's, work this way?

The thing I have learned about hotel shops is that you can never really control how things are going to go down. Sometimes you may be required to step outside your comfort zone, scrounge up a guest, be somewhere at night, play a round of golf, eat food you don't like, etc....

Yesterday, while on a shop, I found that unbeknownst to me, the only event available at my hotel (an attending a hotel event is required) is a 7 AM yoga class. So, it's 7 AM yoga for me. Do I want to be practicing yoga at 7 AM after eating steak and half a bottle of wine at 11 PM last night?...no way! Am I going to assure myself more shops in the future because I dragged myself out of bed at 6:30 AM, made coffee, threw on some sweats and came downstairs only to find out that the 7 AM yoga class has been cancelled due to rain...yes!

Yes, I'm also a little crabby this morning because I woke up at 6:30 for no reason, but c'mon...that's the game. Be resourceful if you want to get the best assignments....or don't, and I'll just keep taking them