@Robroy wrote:

"Earlier in the thread you mentioned that it was possible to provide my arrival time at the location and my time zone, and that the event description could be written for me...is that how you prefer to handle the reports, or is it just something you offer to make the reporting a little less difficult for the shopper?"

This is bad business on the part of the MSPs. Inexperienced people providing a notarized statement for PPV piracy, and having some other person write a description of the event is not a solid "hit." What happens if the notarized statement has to be redone? The credibility of that person is shot down. If the bar owner disputes the charges/fine there is too much leeway in their favor, i.e why did the notarized statement need to be rewritten; who wrote the description of the event (not good if it was done by a third party not at the location) and if it does go to court are you willing to testify? These are hefty fines, big enough to piss off a bar owner. You have been outed, they know who you are because you provided a notarized statement along with video. Many of these bars have surveillance and can match your face with your name and the car you drive. There are a number of legitimate ways to handle this type of sting, this is not one of them. Based on the fines that can be levied for piracy, the pay for this shop should be much, much higher considering you, the shopper, is taking on a tremendous amount of risk.

I'm not really sure what's up with all the doomsday stuff you have going on. Respectfully, who are you to tell anyone what is or isn't a good hit for another MSP? You are not the client, nor are you the MSP working for the client, nor are you at all even an employee or contractor for other. Why do you keep making all of these assertions about what is or isn't right. No one is changing a signed and notarized affidavit for crying out loud. That's not even remotely close to what is going on.

You are speaking without even fully understanding the process or what exactly is being done by the MSPs and I really think you should not be doing so.

There are some locations that are sketchy, there are some that are simple taco joints or italian places, there are bowling alleys, hotel event spaces, and everything in between. Every person I know who has people do these gives them the right to walk. No one is forcing anyone, no one gets fined, no one yells at them if they don't go in. They may not get other offers, but there is no type of forcing at all.
"
In terms of court, as stated prior I have personally done over 100 of these and people I know have easily done up to a thousand at this point over the last 3 years. I dont know a single person who has had to go to court. Ask a lawyer, it's all about the settlement. How exactly does someone contest something with multiple agencies and live video showing that yes, they were indeed stealing?

It is indeed correct a possible risk and something that could theoretically happen.

"Many of these bars have survellance and can match your facae with your name and the car you drive".

Seriously? Do you have a single shred of evidence that this is a thing? If you do, can you also provide how many of these businesses who can't afford to pay for a fight can somehow afford to pay for a camera system to do this? I Mean yeah, i guess there's a CHANCE that they might have the video footage from MONTHS prior (which is how long it takes before they are taken to court) but this is like people who are afraid to fly. This is simply not a serious concern. The concern people should be taking seriously is what kind of location it is and making sure to not get caught which will have a confrontation. This is why it's important to not accept jobs like this blindly, it's 'important to do some legwork and figure out if the place is an area you are even willing to go into.

I would say well over half of people decline because of the kind of place it is. Race, age, gender, are all things that matter very much for these depending on your community.

These piracy jobs have been going on for decades. I would encourage everyone to google things likle "piracy investigator found murdered" or "bar caught for pirating boxing hunted down investigator" or words to that affect to get a feel for how often bar owners get peoples names.

You are bringing up real and legitimate things, but they just are things that are so incredibly unlikely based off a pretty large sample size after a few years of doing this. Ive gone into some pretty seedy places, I dont have a lot of places I wont go in. Ive never refused to go into anything and ive often been the only white guy out of 300. I am NOT your typical person but I am super comfortable around everyone and have no hangups.

Some random stats in my purely anecdotal evidence.

Ive had zero confrontations on my part. Ive never been caught recording. I also will not do a recording and just take the smaller fee if it comes down to it. My best friend got caught and confronted on his first shop and has never been willing to do another one again. I once caught NINE people in a night. Every single one was a hookah bar or regular bar and I made over 2500 that night for 4 hours of driving that night, and a 6 hour drive each way. (I went from Chicago to Detroit to do them)

Long story short is, the risk is inherent, but no one has to take any risks they are uncomfortable with. You must not accept them blind and you have to check out what is going on there. If it's a place with a lot of latinos, go find a latino wingperson and go have fun. If it's in a motorcycle club and you know no bikers, simply pass. No one will think less of anyone for doing so. There's no reason to simply paint every one of these assignments with a large brush and saying "these are bad, don't do them".

These need to be looked at on an individual basis. If you're not comfortable with it, then simply pass. Don't try to scare people by making it seem scarier than it is. People just need to be smart and not let the lure of money get them into a bad situation. If you're older, not comfortable in mixed race environments, easily intimidated, or just not sneaky at all these jobs are simply not for you. It's not that no one can do those jobs, it's just it doesn't make sense. Grandmothers are middle aged women are not going to be going into 20-30 something local bars and hanging out. They can certainly go and do the job if they want to, but I wouldn't recommend it.

The 5 P's of the military also apply to mystery shopping. Proper planning prevents piss poor performance. Do your homework people. Don't accept these kinds of jobs before you know where you are going. Do not commit if you are not 100% okay, and even then if you don't like what you see when you get there...walk. They can be incredibly lucrative, but you have to play it safe. Don't let the lure of money make you do things you aren't comfortable with and have something happen. These definitely take a special kind of person to do. And always, always always, i suggest going with a friend.

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

I don't speak for TA but I had a "dud" on one occasion and he was very fair in reimbursing me for my time.

I do not speak for TA either but in the cases where things went south when I did things I was fairly taken care of as well. I never ended up losing anything more than my time which is a known risk going into it.

@DrSquash wrote:

This does smell a lot like something that they should be hiring licensed PIs to do. It's way outside of what I'd consider MSing for several reasons. One, they don't care about the receipt, or even that one has bought anything at all. Two, there's no pay without a "hit." These "shops" should pay some nominal amount for time even if there's no "hit" if they want to use ICs from the nominal MS "pool." I know a licensed PI would charge them something to go to the location and check them out.

A contract is a voluntary agreement between two entities. You know what you are getting into ahead of time, if you do not feel that the job is worth it, then don't do it. That's the joy of being a contractor. No one can punish you for not doing a job except the company not letting you do jobs for them (that you didn't want to do anyway, so who cares what they think )

I have exactly zero hangups. Seriously? I make over 100 bucks an hour average on these events in teh three years ive been doing them. Realistically, I'm probably closer to about 150-175 an hour. This Saturday I hit 4 successful locations and make a cool 1k in about 4 hours total. I'm quite content with an hourly rate of $250. My record is a little over 3500 in a night after referral fees for leads and shoppers. Im also a pretty good whiz at finding leads and padding my bank that way. I spent a good three weeks on this last fight looking for leads.

I also know for a fact that these affidavits are never given to the bar owners unless they take it to trial. As stated, it's pretty unlikely they will do this for a variety of reasons. Most of which is it's gonna cost them a lot more in trial than if they just settle first. They know they stole it, there's evidence of it. Could it happen, yes. I have yet to know someone who's done it and ive referred in over 40 different people and have done over 100 of these myself.

@jackaroe wrote:

Has the actual client been named??
if not, I can name the two MSC that do this.

One of them sends you on a fishing expedition.
They send you a pocket remote and tell you to just randomly go into bars, restaurants and clubs and try and ask the bartender to change the channel to PPV or a sport cannels. If they refuse you use your secret remote and video tape/ take a pic the screen..


They give you a list of verified establishments to broadcast and YOU have to figure out on your own, WITH NO ASSISTANCE the unauthorized establishments
Its a pure fishing expedition
Pays around $500 for each successful. NO PAY if your not successful

They "CLAIM" people make over a 100,000 a year doing this.

I find that HARD to believe .
I did the training once but never ventured out.

Are you shitting me?! They ask that YOU use a remote and change their tv channel or am I misunderstanding what you mean there?

@jrossetti wrote:

This Saturday I hit 4 successful locations and make a cool 1k in about 4 hours total.
I spent a good three weeks on this last fight looking for leads.

So you made a cool 1k in 4 hours or 3 weeks?

The 1k was from what I did that night in PPV's for TA.

I did not include what was made from my searching in those three weeks. The 1k total is strictly what I got as a normal shopper for TA given leads by him.

jrosetti- You stated above, " I once caught NINE people in a night. Every single one was a hookah bar or regular bar and I made over 2500 that night for 4 hours of driving that night, and a 6 hour drive each way. (I went from Chicago to Detroit to do them)."
Well good for you! You made $277/hit that night along with four or six hours drive time. It works for you. Best of luck.

@Robroy wrote:

jrosetti- You stated above, " I once caught NINE people in a night. Every single one was a hookah bar or regular bar and I made over 2500 that night for 4 hours of driving that night, and a 6 hour drive each way. (I went from Chicago to Detroit to do them)."
Well good for you! You made $277/hit that night along with four or six hours drive time. It works for you. Best of luck.

Another way of looking at it is I made over 100 per hour for 20 hours over two days. Most people will have a lead within an hour drive. I was simply willing to take the risk it would pan out and it did.

I know four shoppers who broke 1k this saturday night as well and stayed near their house.

THere's tons of money to be made with these unless you have hangups about where you go and lots of people do. It's the reality of the jobs.

@jrossetti wrote:

I did not include what was made from my searching in those three weeks.

Please tell me how to make money searching for leads.

I'll be happy to be your guide =) Lead finding is where ive been super padding lol. There's a few ways to go about doing it. My niche is facebook.

send me an email or connect on facebook.

armzekk@yahoo.com (fbook only)
joe.n.rossetti@gmail.com for here.

I'm sure someone will take you up on that offer.

@bgriffin wrote:

I'm sure someone will take you up on that offer.

You're the one who asked me?

You failed to understand my question. I did not ask how you found leads, I asked how you got paid for searching.

Oooh! Referral fees mostly.

There is nothing preventing you from sharing leads you find with multiple agencies or people.

I can find a lead and give it to as many agencies as I want and collect a referral fee.
I could refer a new shopper and get one.
I can recruit a shopper to do a job, but offer them less than the $250 and pocket the rest. One company I do stuff for doesn't care if he gets the other persons affidavit from me or from them. He'll pay whoever turns it in.

@jrossetti wrote:

I can recruit a shopper to do a job, but offer them less than the $250 and pocket the rest. One company I do stuff for doesn't care if he gets the other persons affidavit from me or from them. He'll pay whoever turns it in.

That seems kind of shitty

That's what's known as market forces. If I can find someone willing to do the job for less and they accept it there's nothing shitty about it. It's a voluntary relationship that they are choosing to or not to do. Yes, if that person knew what the jobs were or who to talk to they could do the job themselves and get paid a bit more, but they don't. This is exactly how third party scheduling agencies work too.

I could go directly to an MSP and negotiate a rate, or I can use a third party agency who is going to keep a cut of what they negotiate for themselves and I'll probably make less than if I had done it myself. I dont see this as that agency being shitty for keeping part of the pay, they still provided me a service. If I had the time to do it myself I would have done so, but I was busy and they also were scheduling for several companies so I got a route I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Either way, not shitty.

I guess it depends on how it's addressed. If it's "I work for this company and they pay me a cut to coordinate shoppers and send them out to do PPV audits would you like to do some?" that's ok. If it's something where you're hiding that they could simply go to the companies themselves and get the full fee, yeah, pretty crappy of you.

jrossetti
You understood correctly what I wrote.
SA works with a completely different business model.
They don't tell you where to go,. You figure it out for yourself.

Most events they are looking for are unauthorized soccer games showing on sports channels not PPV.


They say if the event is not showing, ask the bartender to switch the channel , if they don't .. USE YOUR HIDDEN REMOTE to switch channel.
If the unauthorized channel come up you get a picture or video of the channel with the banner on the TV< ( You have to get the channel banner)

You only get paid for hits, places where the channel does not come up DO NOT PAY

I believe everyone has a valid point (or two!). It is my responsibility as a scheduling company to offer jobs with precise guidelines that everyone feels comfortable following.

I think we can all agree that what is done is done, and no changes can be made to what happened during previous PPV audits.

However, I need (and want) to take everyone's concerns and opinions into consideration. It is pretty clear to me that a change needs to happen with the guidelines and maybe the way the audits are performed. I am only human and I make mistakes. But I like to think that mistakes are made so we can learn from them.

Re-hashing what has happened and engaging in wars of words will not make any difference to anything. On the contrary, it will only create animosity against people and jobs. That is counterproductive.

I have decided to revamp the guidelines, and the way the jobs are marketed. I now see that the job postings may be misleading, and it is not fair to the shoppers who pick up the jobs. Shoppers should know going in that there are different parts to the job (video, pics, affidavit, etc). I wanted the posting to be concise but doing so I missed disclosing key elements of the job.

I hope there are no hard feelings. I am still very new at this scheduling thing. I have been a shopper since 2006, but a scheduling company only since November 2014. I very much appreciate respectful feedback and will always welcome constructive criticism.

Thank you everyone for the input, and be on the look-out for future jobs!

The two locations I found both ended up paying the fee before the deadline.

@Robroy wrote:

James Bond-how did your sting play out? Did you get a hit?

@jackaroe wrote:

jrossetti
You understood correctly what I wrote.
SA works with a completely different business model.
They don't tell you where to go,. You figure it out for yourself.

Most events they are looking for are unauthorized soccer games showing on sports channels not PPV.


They say if the event is not showing, ask the bartender to switch the channel , if they don't .. USE YOUR HIDDEN REMOTE to switch channel.
If the unauthorized channel come up you get a picture or video of the channel with the banner on the TV< ( You have to get the channel banner)

You only get paid for hits, places where the channel does not come up DO NOT PAY

How is THAT even legal? What a shady @#$%& company. They should be reported for fraud. Sending people in to change the channel of someones television to then record and sue them is completely out of line. How is that not entrapment or some sort of fraud?

I do the soccer thing but I suck at finding leads and I wont send anyone out on a random goose hunt unless I have very good reason to believe they are going to pocket some cash.

That's @#$%& up. I DO understand the you figure out where you go yourself because we know our hoods the best. I found a lead wandering around this saturday after i hit my scheduled leads and picked up another success.

Wow man, thanks for sharing. That's downright incredible they would want you to do something bullshit shady like that.

What company is that for? I would prefer to not ever working for someone who relies on entrapping people to get paid. Its one thing if the business does it on their own, its totally different if we're bringing in remotes to make them do it.

Ugh.

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

The two locations I found both ended up paying the fee before the deadline.

@Robroy wrote:

James Bond-how did your sting play out? Did you get a hit?

Why had you left your house before knowing if your places were legal? The worst that should happen is you get stuck at home. Further, if you're going to commit time, you may as well call ahead. No company is going to shut down and kick out their customers for someone calling and asking if they are showing the fight.

Jrossetti, please don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that I left my house. I had found the locations by doing some detective work [as mentioned in a previous post]. Both locations were in the city where I live. One location paid late on Friday, the other paid about 3PM on Saturday.

@jrossetti wrote:

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

The two locations I found both ended up paying the fee before the deadline.

@Robroy wrote:

James Bond-how did your sting play out? Did you get a hit?

Why had you left your house before knowing if your places were legal? The worst that should happen is you get stuck at home. Further, if you're going to commit time, you may as well call ahead. No company is going to shut down and kick out their customers for someone calling and asking if they are showing the fight.

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

Jrossetti, please don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that I left my house. I had found the locations by doing some detective work [as mentioned in a previous post]. Both locations were in the city where I live. One location paid late on Friday, the other paid about 3PM on Saturday.

@jrossetti wrote:

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

The two locations I found both ended up paying the fee before the deadline.

@Robroy wrote:

James Bond-how did your sting play out? Did you get a hit?

Why had you left your house before knowing if your places were legal? The worst that should happen is you get stuck at home. Further, if you're going to commit time, you may as well call ahead. No company is going to shut down and kick out their customers for someone calling and asking if they are showing the fight.

You're right, I read that as you had left and did them and im lisle wtf, who sent you out early! Sorry for the misunderstanding on what you were saying.

Ok, so let me see if I understand this correctly:

Edlund schedules shoppers for the PPV events for jrossetti.
jrossetti makes the shoppers sign a non-compete clause to work for him so in turn they're not able to go work directly for Taylor and Associates.
So then the fee the shopper COULD have gotten from Taylor & Associates is now split between the shopper, Edlund, and jrossetti.

Did I get that right?

That explains so much. Like why jrossetti is so gosh darn upset when anybody says the slightest negative thing about the PPV audits.

There was one shop I wrote about where I did leave early. The location had a track record of showing PPV fights so I felt confident in leaving early simply because of the time to get there, and also to get the required location pictures while there was still ambient light available. I did get paid for that assignment.

@jrossetti wrote:

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

Jrossetti, please don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that I left my house. I had found the locations by doing some detective work [as mentioned in a previous post]. Both locations were in the city where I live. One location paid late on Friday, the other paid about 3PM on Saturday.

@jrossetti wrote:

@James Bond 007.5 wrote:

The two locations I found both ended up paying the fee before the deadline.

@Robroy wrote:

James Bond-how did your sting play out? Did you get a hit?

Why had you left your house before knowing if your places were legal? The worst that should happen is you get stuck at home. Further, if you're going to commit time, you may as well call ahead. No company is going to shut down and kick out their customers for someone calling and asking if they are showing the fight.

You're right, I read that as you had left and did them and im lisle wtf, who sent you out early! Sorry for the misunderstanding on what you were saying.

@bgriffin wrote:

Ok, so let me see if I understand this correctly:

Edlund schedules shoppers for the PPV events for jrossetti.
jrossetti makes the shoppers sign a non-compete clause to work for him so in turn they're not able to go work directly for Taylor and Associates.
So then the fee the shopper COULD have gotten from Taylor & Associates is now split between the shopper, Edlund, and jrossetti.

Did I get that right?

I'm sorry, bgriffin. You did not get it right.

As an independent scheduling company, I work with both JRE and TA. Their needs were not the same for this project, so it's not like I was taking one's shopper to give the other (which would be unethical). Without going into too much detail, one wanted me to accompany the shoppers from beginning to end of the project, and the other wanted postings he would answer himself.

There are no non-compete clauses, to my knowledge. A shopper can do one job for TA in one town and one in the next town for JRE. A shopper cannot do a job for each at the same location, because the PPV people would not accept two affidavits at the same location by the same person, regardless of the reporting agency.

jrossetti does not subcontract leads from TA. TA and JRE are on the same level. So there is no splitting of the fee TA gives the shoppers.

As far as my pay, it is taken out of what JRE makes, not what the shopper makes.

Then again, my $15 per location would not make or break the deal for most people! ;-)


Edited to Add: Whether you work for JRE or for TA, you get $250. Both are excellent companies to work for and the workload for each is very similar (from the shopper's standpoint).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2015 05:54PM by EDS - Edlund Data Services.

@bgriffin wrote:

Ok, so let me see if I understand this correctly:

Edlund schedules shoppers for the PPV events for jrossetti.
jrossetti makes the shoppers sign a non-compete clause to work for him so in turn they're not able to go work directly for Taylor and Associates.
So then the fee the shopper COULD have gotten from Taylor & Associates is now split between the shopper, Edlund, and jrossetti.

Did I get that right?

Not, not even close.

The non compete doesn't stop you from working for anyone, it would stop you from creating a business or doing what I do in scheduling these types of assignments or creating your own business to do so.

If you want clarification, ask for it. The posting guidelines on this forum are to be honest and you are not being honest.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2015 05:57PM by jrossetti.

Now I'm more confused. Is JRE jrossetti?
In another thread jrossetti stated that he works for Taylor and Associates. He also stated at one point that Taylor and Associates pays him for the shop and does not care if he does it or if someone else does it for him.
It is my understanding that jrossetti asked at least one shopper to sign a non compete clause baring the shopper from doing other PPV or signal auditing type work for sporting events for any other company.
Is there something I am missing? Just curious.

Personally I don't care what the business arrangement is. I don't do the audits, although I had thought that perhaps next time there were some I might give them another shot. Knowing that that would include being associated with jrossetti that idea has changed. I just think the whole thing stinks of shady. If it were a bit more above board then perhaps not. And perhaps I missed a disclosure somewhere.