Is it immoral to have a job that pays under the table?

Doesn't anyone remember Vice President Agnew? He failed to disclose on his tax returns the illegal bribes he received.

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@walesmaven wrote:

"Clowns entertaining goats" seems like an apt metaphor for some of the pot-stirrers on the forum and those that follow them.

Were this a church, the presumed outcome would be hellfire and damnation. Here, in a forum where some people protest the inclusion of any/all religious references, it is fine for people to participate (or not) in any discussion.

I like this topic. It is similar to ones posed to students. Students must find some way to explain and possibly justify the oddest darned things. Is this type of assignment illegal or immoral? I do not know about that. If students are thinking, researching, and expressing, they probably are learning something. I find it interesting that various posters have various references for their ideas. The common thread, of course, is values. What is valued at any place or time in history? What do the historical and literary records teach about this? We still learn from them, even though today's presentations are formatted for today's technologies.

imho, the forum members are doing a wonderful job with finding references that guide them and us through converging and diverging concepts.

Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished. - Lao-Tzu

Well, 'higher law' has been discussed since the beginning of time. How hungry or sick or prejudiced against do you need to be before you force someone or some institution to hand over part of their legally or illegally gotten goods so that you or who you represent can survive for now and thrive in the future? This is what war is about. What the Rockefeller's did was perfectly legal but not moral.

We must adhere to legality but morality is for us to decide.

Live consciously....

GOATS. That's what WALESMAVEN thinks people are who participate in this discussion. GOATS.
A conversation that is ultimately about higher law, religion, survival, the greater public good, taxes and public infrastructure, legalities and moralities and whomever participates is a GOAT.

This, from a person that makes their living doing absolutely nothing but FOLLOWING pre-written guidelines to TAPE what someone else is doing and absolutely nothing more. Ironic.

walesmaven 13k 8y November 30, 2017 02:59PM
"Clowns entertaining goats" seems like an apt metaphor for some of the pot-stirrers on the forum and those that follow them.

Based in MD, near DC
Shopping from the Carolinas to New York
Have video cam; will travel

Poor customer service? Don't get mad; get video.

I want to stay out, but must say that I didn't understand the "clown/goat"phrase taken from another's signature, (out of context) and applying it here. I have enjoyed this topic, and find the different opinions interesting, so,
putting members down for participating doesn't make sense....maybe an off day!!

Live consciously....

Yes, we're all having a good discussion/debate. In a healthy republic, people are free to discus their opinions on certain matters without being sent to prison camps(North Korea).

I have just adopted a ledger to keep track of my earning, mileage, reimburseable expenses, etc. based on the great advice that I got on this forum.
My problem: I started mystery shopping earlier this year, with a few shops here and there and it grew into something bigger. I did not keep track of my shops for most of the year. Would you, if you were me, try to go back and figure it out to report as income, though it may not be 100% accurate? Or would you just start with the coming year?

It shouldn't be hard to recreate your records if you just started in 2017 and have not done that many shops. Why would it not be accurate? Between your own bank deposits, PayPal and the MSCs records, there is no reason it cannot be pieced together.

Equal rights for others does not mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie.
"I prefer someone who burns the flag and then wraps themselves up in the Constitution over someone who burns the Constitution and then wraps themselves up in the flag." -Molly Ivins
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time and it really annoys the pig.

That’s what I will do then

When I used to resell phones and calculators during college, all the profit I made was in cash and income was not reported. Same during my elementary years when I used to flip Pokémon cards, hack Pokemon games in exchange for other games. During middle school until I graduated high school. I was a bit of a bootlegger, then also tutored for cash in math, engineering and physics. All cash made was not reported. Did I do something immoral? Not really. As I fell in the very bottom tax bracket during those days anyways. What do you think about tenants who pay cheap rent to live in your house in cash; is that immoral to not report?

Shopping the Greater Denver Area, Colorado Springs and in-between in Colorado. 33 year old male and willing to travel!

Many corporations, like Apple or Goldman Sachs especially, use tax havens to store hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign countries in order to pay a lower tax rate. With the paradise papers leaked, it will be interesting to see which companies use these tax havens to avoid paying taxes. The IRS has bigger fish to fry than worrying about us peasants.

I don't expect everything to be handed to me, just set it down wherever.

@spicy1 wrote:

How hungry or sick or prejudiced against do you need to be before you force someone or some institution to hand over part of their legally or illegally gotten goods so that you or who you represent can survive for now and thrive in the future?

Theft is theft, regardless of the motivation behind it. It's not justified because of a person's circumstance. I'm actually a little surprised that people who work for a living would think that it's ever okay for someone to take the fruit of their labor. If you do, PM me your address. I know some folks who consider themselves hungry ;-)

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?” ~Walter Williams

If a mother had starving children and they were on the cusp of dying, would it still not be justified to steal a loaf of bread from a store. Just like murder, there are varying degrees of murder; self-defense, manslaughter, first degree, second degree, ect. Hence why judges and law enforcement will give leniency on a certain crime, depending on the person's circumstances and the degree of the crime.

The answer is: There is no one answer, our circumstances at that time decides what one has to do for survival, outside of killing or physically hurting anyone. For instance, if your child is hungry, (not dying) and you know what supermarket sets free food out for the food bank, wouldn't you go get bread and whatever else, why wouldn't you,
morally, is that stealing, not in my eyes. Many different ways to view a crime as stated above. Children have all stolen (shoplifted) something, with Mom taking them back to return and apoligize. Taking the moral high road may be worst than doing what you need to do for your children. No one here can tell me they have never done anything that could be questioned....

Live consciously....

I seem to recall an instance where a large group of people decided they no longer wanted to pay what they considered unfair taxes. To protest they dumped three boatloads of someone else's tea in Boston Harbor. Moral or immoral? Keep in mind, there were no starving children being fed by their actions

Lisa...that would be immoral.....

Live consciously....

I always suspected Samuel Adams and the Sons of Liberty were an immoral bunch.

Probably want to read up on your history, but that aside...

Dave writes:
If a mother had starving children and they were on the cusp of dying, would it still not be justified to steal a loaf of bread from a store... Judges will give leniency...
Does it change if the theft is from an individual rather than painting it as something as non-personal as a "store"? Or is it okay to steal from a faceless entity, just not from a person? Theft is always wrong. I agree with you that there are different degrees of wrong; that's why we have different penalties depending upon the action and even the motivation. A kid taking a joyride in my car is as guilty of theft as a pro taking it to a chopshop. Same with the red-herring mother with the starving child versus the person who lives off their shoplifting. Both wrong, but the penalties ought to fit the crime. So, yes, judges give leniency where warranted -- they don't absolve the perpetrator of the crime, only show mercy to the punishment. They're still guilty of committing the crime.

If those of you who think it's okay to steal because one is in "need", please send me your address. I know several people who feel their needs are life-and-death who would be happy to visit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 04:44AM by iShop123.

@iShop123 wrote:

Probably want to read up on your history, but that aside...

Dave writes:
If a mother had starving children and they were on the cusp of dying, would it still not be justified to steal a loaf of bread from a store... Judges will give leniency...
Does it change if the theft is from an individual rather than painting it as something as non-personal as a "store"? Or is it okay to steal from a faceless entity, just not from a person? Theft is always wrong. I agree with you that there are different degrees of wrong; that's why we have different penalties depending upon the action and even the motivation. A kid taking a joyride in my car is as guilty of theft as a pro taking it to a chopshop. Same with the red-herring mother with the starving child versus the person who lives off their shoplifting. Both wrong, but the penalties ought to fit the crime. So, yes, judges give leniency where warranted -- they don't absolve the perpetrator of the crime, only show mercy to the punishment. They're still guilty of committing the crime.

If those of you who think it's okay to steal because one is in "need", please send me your address. I know several people who feel their needs are life-and-death who would be happy to visit.

I think you're starting to understand now.

So... why are people starving? What is going on with food distribution? Somewhere, there is a stat showing sufficient food supplies and insufficient distribution of food. Is anything illegal or immoral happening that prevents food from reaching legitimately hungry persons?

Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished. - Lao-Tzu

Of course there is.

North Korea comes to mind where the military is given top priority and the rest of the populace is starving to death. Is it morally wrong if the person steals from a corrupt government? Should that person still be labeled guilty of the crime if they steal a pound of rice from the North Korean government to feed their starving family.

Would a person living in a concentration camp in Germany be in the wrong if they stole an extra cup of soup for their child? The nazis stole all the possessions from the jews, would it still be wrong to steal some extra soup for their family?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 03:41PM by DavePi.

IS LIFE FAIR??????

Live consciously....

DavePi, I don't recommend testing the North Korean government. You might end up being the food for the starving family...

They wish they could eat me

This is how I would serve myself if I had to choose.

You look crusty!

Yes very crustylicious

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 05:47PM by DavePi.

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Is it immoral to have a job that pays under the table?

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