Yes but what about the mentally ill they are out in public since they are no longer warehoused anywhere unless they are a danger to someone other than family.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

We are not free to force people to submit to our personal idea of what caring looks like. We can do what we can to reduce risk.

The big issue with this virus, Shopetal, is that some people can't really be safe unless others do their part.

It's not like skin cancer, where not wearing sunscreen and going to tanning salons and bathing in the summer heat and sunshine only is a risk to yourself. Skin cancer won't transmit to your neighbor.

The poor and frontline workers are particularly vulnerable. The grocery clerk making $8/hour cannot afford to stay home and has to work a job serving hundreds a day. That person cannot stay safe just wearing a mask. She/he depends on you/us to do our part. Same for medical personnel.

The same is true for everyone really, b/c even if you're not on the frontlines, someone you know can bring it back to you. We're all in this together. To truly squash COVID w/ as few deaths as possible, we need full cooperation.

If one is ever tempted to think of some counter-argument, then just think of the grocery clerk who makes $8/hour serving you. It is not possible to love thy neighbor in this situation by saying it's your right to not wear a mask and that we all die at some point. The grocery clerk knows the risk and is probably fine to die from some random thing. What the grocery clerk doesn't want is to die totally unnecessarily from people not even trying to be safe.

People still go into grocery stores? I thought that was replaced by distance shopping and contactless delivery.

I work part time in a grocery store as a personal shopper. People are still in there.

In Florida, some gang members have been renting vacation houses and having parties to intentionally spread COVID.
[nypost.com]
[www.newsweek.com]

They literally spilled out onto the streets. Not cool.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2020 04:31AM by shoptastic.

I live in Florida. I will tell you that every single day the news is reporting on cases of people signing up for testing- being irritated with the wait and leaving .. untested. Yet they are getting positive results in the mail. There are people who don't want to go back to work - so they are getting self cheek swabs and having a positive person take it - so they get out of going back to work for at least 14 days. There are people who attend big parties- just so they can see if they can get it. Either for unemployment or political reasons. There was even a big story about how every death - is listed as Covid. Even a motorcycle accident death. As someone who lives in a part of the State that is driven by tourism and service workers. I will tell you that our city is crippled by devastation. If we go back inside again - and close everything down .. the effects of this will far exceed anything the virus will bring. I am often reminded by a saying that seems very appropriate in todays culture. While we are all in the same storm; we are nowhere near in the same boat. Some boats are strong. Other boats have every luxury in the World. While others may be clinging to their boats - waiting on just one strong wave to tip it over. And even others are in the water- clinging to their boat as it is going down.... so decide what kind of boat you are in and realize that your boat is not someone else's boat.

In the best of times the average lifetime of a restaurant here is about a year. I too am in Florida in a tourist economy area and in normal times could go to a different restaurant each night for years without duplication simply because restaurant failures are so fast and then someone else steps in to try their inexperienced hand at it. My point is that shoestring ventures fail in good times because while they may flourish during tourist season, they can't make it through non-tourist times. The summer traditionally is our non-tourist times. It is traditionally the time of layoffs in hospitality, medical staffing and retail. A shut down in our area--strictly enforced--for four weeks would indeed shutter financially fragile businesses, but at the end of this month many/most will be laying off most off their employees because their PPP obligation of keeping folks on payroll to achieve loan forgiveness will be over. My bet is that many will close even though they have stayed open throughout the shut down selling take out food to persuade authorities that they are 'essential services'.

A shut down now would not END COVID in the area, but would go a long way towards knocking it back to make it safer for all of us. We are not an island that can screen everyone entering the area. To reopen schools in a time of increasing COVID is nonsense. And to open schools without masks is suicidal. With three more COVID deaths reported from our hospital yesterday, this is not some falsified 'emergency'. I agree that testing has had its issues. I certainly have little faith in the numbers once they arrive in politically influenceable hands. The United States was ill prepared to deal with a pandemic and once here has handled it as a political football rather than just having science deal with it. We are all now dealing with "COVID Fatigue", which is being recognized as a mental health issue with symptoms of depression, exasperation, and short tempers.

What?? That does not make sense.

This is full of nonsense. Please fact your claims.

Lstockwell, what doesn't make sense?

Moving on, then.

In support of a potentially new condition that might be called 'covid brain death'... or possibly 'what happens after a few weeks of delving into someone else's odd business'... I transferred money to cover my tax and recent medicals. I nearly had apoplexy when I saw that my bank balance had increased by a whopping two dollars. Two Dollars?! I needed two thousand! I was able to make the correction. But still. Now that I have finished berating myself, I hope that my goof brought someone in money world a giggle amid the dratted disease and ongoing concerns on many financial fronts.

Do we need a shutdown? Maybe. Do I need a nap? Definitely!

@Flash wrote:

but at the end of this month many/most will be laying off most off their employees because their PPP obligation of keeping folks on payroll to achieve loan forgiveness will be over.

Flash, the first batch of PPP loans were actually eligible for forgiveness already. That was end of June. Some have wondered whether some of the recent unemployment claims numbers are from PPP recipients laying people off the past couple of weeks (now that they're allowed to). It's too early to tell perhaps, but if it continues, it'll be noticeable/deducible from the data that is released each Thursday morning on the number of unemployed in America.

If there is a rising curve of unemployment going forward, that would be really bad.

To me, there's only one way to "fix" this. Re-lockdown nationally, bail everyone out again for 30-45 days, squash the COVID numbers, and reopen. Otherwise, this could drag on for a few years and the economic devastation will be enormous. I noticed Trump has been wearing a mask lately and called it patriotic. *eye-roll*

I find it amazing that news articles are talking about how Australia has lost control of their COVID cases. They had 260 overnight. Total COVID deaths = 123.

The past few days have seen new U.S. cases at 60,000 to 70,000.

260 cases is an explosion in some countries. What does that make the U.S.??? I was listening to some people from Australia talk about the U.S. situation in horror. They said reading the news of the U.S. was absolutely terrifying. Even a few thousand COVID deaths as things just started in March sounded scary. But, they said it scares the heck out of them to see 140,000+ now. They could not imagine how scary it would be if it happened in Australia.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2020 06:22AM by shoptastic.

It happens to all of us!

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Moving on, then.

In support of a potentially new condition that might be called 'covid brain death'... or possibly 'what happens after a few weeks of delving into someone else's odd business'... I transferred money to cover my tax and recent medicals. I nearly had apoplexy when I saw that my bank balance had increased by a whopping two dollars. Two Dollars?! I needed two thousand! I was able to make the correction. But still. Now that I have finished berating myself, I hope that my goof brought someone in money world a giggle amid the dratted disease and ongoing concerns on many financial fronts.

Do we need a shutdown? Maybe. Do I need a nap? Definitely!

@shoptastic wrote:

Flash, the first batch of PPP loans were actually eligible for forgiveness already.

I believe Flash is talking about the fact that to receive funds you had to agree to maintain employment through Sept 30.

Loggerheads.. One place to begin is with the co-dependence literature. In a nutshell, forcing others is unhealthy and breeds a world of problems! Even before covid, this type of sickness has run rampant throughout the world. The long history of instances is too much for one post.

In the covid era, it is best to let each person do what they can for their health as this pertains to covid. You might choose to isolate, wear a mask, ramp up nutrition and exercise, avoid IC work, or do something else that might benefit your health directly or indirectly.

If you believe that others' choices (not wearing masks, not distancing, etc.) increase your risk, then reduce your own exposure accordingly.

@shoptastic wrote:

@Shop-et-al wrote:

We are not free to force people to submit to our personal idea of what caring looks like. We can do what we can to reduce risk.

The big issue with this virus, Shopetal, is that some people can't really be safe unless others do their part.

It's not like skin cancer, where not wearing sunscreen and going to tanning salons and bathing in the summer heat and sunshine only is a risk to yourself. Skin cancer won't transmit to your neighbor.

The poor and frontline workers are particularly vulnerable. The grocery clerk making $8/hour cannot afford to stay home and has to work a job serving hundreds a day. That person cannot stay safe just wearing a mask. She/he depends on you/us to do our part. Same for medical personnel.

The same is true for everyone really, b/c even if you're not on the frontlines, someone you know can bring it back to you. We're all in this together. To truly squash COVID w/ as few deaths as possible, we need full cooperation.

If one is ever tempted to think of some counter-argument, then just think of the grocery clerk who makes $8/hour serving you. It is not possible to love thy neighbor in this situation by saying it's your right to not wear a mask and that we all die at some point. The grocery clerk knows the risk and is probably fine to die from some random thing. What the grocery clerk doesn't want is to die totally unnecessarily from people not even trying to be safe.

Shut down? Sign me up!

@bgriffin wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

Flash, the first batch of PPP loans were actually eligible for forgiveness already.

I believe Flash is talking about the fact that to receive funds you had to agree to maintain employment through Sept 30.

Yes, there are a number of different deadlines and I have not paid close attention to precisely which kind of "loan" required which stack of conditions to be forgiven. There was commentary the other day that one of the airlines was making up their 'pink slip' list to give their employees ample lead time to find other work as they will be laid off Oct 1 by the thousands.

Meanwhile local teachers are as usual going into their own pockets for classroom supplies as the district will 'allow' masks but at this point will neither mandate nor supply them. They also are loading up on school supplies with the understanding that the kids who return to the classroom in many cases will be underprivileged populations doing it so that their parents can go back to work and the kids get fed at school. The county adjacent to ours is providing both masks and goggles and requiring them. Air conditioning in schools is essential in Florida and many of the newer schools do not even have windows that open. Rarely is air conditioning set up for a single classroom, it is more likely for a pod of classrooms or the wing of a building. Most systems can not be retrofitted to take HEPA filters so teachers are buying free standing HEPA filters for their own classrooms in hopes of keeping their students and themselves safe.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

In the covid era, it is best to let each person do what they can for their health as this pertains to covid. You might choose to isolate, wear a mask, ramp up nutrition and exercise, avoid IC work, or do something else that might benefit your health directly or indirectly.

If you believe that others' choices (not wearing masks, not distancing, etc.) increase your risk, then reduce your own exposure accordingly.

We require driver's licenses and auto insurance not to keep the driver safe but rather to compensate for the damage they do to others. The penalties for driving without a license or with an uninsured vehicle are not insubstantial. Perhaps we should take a lead from that rather than declare it is a right to drive without a license and route to compensation for victims of the carelessness of others.

We have helmet laws for motorcyclists. They were modified to IF you are over 21 AND you carry insurance of at least $10,000 to cover YOUR injuries in case of an accident--regardless of cause--you can ride without a helmet. What it boils down to is that short of deliberately plowing down a helmetless motorcyclist with my car, the court is not going to listen to the biker's complaint of loss or expense. Perhaps those without a mask who get sick should just be quarantined and get to pay for their own treatment from their own insurance or pocket, not become a public expense--as is most COVID treatment at this time.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2020 06:42PM by Flash.

9 year old Florida girl dies of COVID.

11 year old Florida boy dies of COVID.

9 month old Minnesota infant dies of COVID complications.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2020 08:30PM by shoptastic.

I just did a merch job yesterday at some dollar stores. Took me all day and lots of miles. Now I'm kicking myself. What the heck did I just expose myself to in all those locations? I'm the idiot - yes, more shut downs and more control.

And despite requirements, laws, penalties, and expectations, there continue to be unlicensed, unfit, under-age, uninsured, under-insured, angry, nutty, drug-influenced, alcohol-influenced, sleepy, lost, and other drivers who put us all at risk. Should we all stop going out in public?

You can do what you want to do about that. I will neither suggest nor force.

I will continue to go out in public, maintain my credentials and insurance, and practice safe & defensive driving. But this is just me.

@Flash wrote:

@Shop-et-al wrote:

In the covid era, it is best to let each person do what they can for their health as this pertains to covid. You might choose to isolate, wear a mask, ramp up nutrition and exercise, avoid IC work, or do something else that might benefit your health directly or indirectly.

If you believe that others' choices (not wearing masks, not distancing, etc.) increase your risk, then reduce your own exposure accordingly.

We require driver's licenses and auto insurance not to keep the driver safe but rather to compensate for the damage they do to others. The penalties for driving without a license or with an uninsured vehicle are not insubstantial. Perhaps we should take a lead from that rather than declare it is a right to drive without a license and route to compensation for victims of the carelessness of others.

We have helmet laws for motorcyclists. They were modified to IF you are over 21 AND you carry insurance of at least $10,000 to cover YOUR injuries in case of an accident--regardless of cause--you can ride without a helmet. What it boils down to is that short of deliberately plowing down a helmetless motorcyclist with my car, the court is not going to listen to the biker's complaint of loss or expense. Perhaps those without a mask who get sick should just be quarantined and get to pay for their own treatment from their own insurance or pocket, not become a public expense--as is most COVID treatment at this time.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 01:01AM by Shop-et-al.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

You can do what you want to do about that. I will neither suggest nor force.

We're getting off-topic, but just curious if you meant that we shouldn't have driving laws?

If so, then you definitely have a radical position, Shopetal. It's even more radical than a traditional libertarian view. Even extreme libertarians believe we need SOME laws that prevent harm. It's just that their definition of harm is often much more narrow than most people's view.

In any case, I wonder if the U.S. would have taken a different approach had COVID's target been kids. What if 145,000 children had died. Would Trump and GOP governors be so slow to embrace masks and force reopenings in states with rising cases? Just another 10 year old dying. We all have to die some day. Americans' freedom to not wear masks is important to uphold. Kids can take precautions to avoid other kids. Adults should not have to go out of their way to protect them by wearing masks around them.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 04:36AM by shoptastic.

@bgriffin wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

Flash, the first batch of PPP loans were actually eligible for forgiveness already.

I believe Flash is talking about the fact that to receive funds you had to agree to maintain employment through Sept 30.

I think we're all talking about the same thing.

The first batch of PPP loans were eligible for forgiveness at June's end and thus employers can lay people off they don't need now. There are others who got loans later and/or may take advantage of the extensions.

But, if you are in business and can simply see you have no chance (maybe 25-30% of your customers show up), you're allowed to let people go and still have the previous loans be forgiven as grants.

eta: Today's 8:30 AM unemployment report (released every Thursday same time) was worse than expected. Not good obviously.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 01:21PM by shoptastic.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

People still go into grocery stores? I thought that was replaced by distance shopping and contactless delivery.

Yes? I just mask up and practice social distancing.

What did Social Services do with the homeless and mentally ill in March when this all started?

I don't have any first hand knowledge of how the programs work. I do know that I still see a mentally ill man living by the lake near my house.

@2stepps wrote:

Yes but what about the mentally ill they are out in public since they are no longer warehoused anywhere unless they are a danger to someone other than family.

In California, they are taking homeless mentally ill people off the streets and putting them into group housing, when possible. They can't be kept against their will, so it's a tricky situation to try to keep them safe without driving them back onto the streets. I personally know two separate families who have each lost three family members in the past week due to COVID. They are heartbroken that they did not take masking seriously until it was too late for those six people.

Radical? Nah. Just practical. Life flows a little better when people choose to do sensible things and, if necessary, take reasonable precautions when some people choose not to do that. This is a quality of life issue, and it matters along with quantity of life.

So instead of calling me a radical, why not take your reasonable steps and remember that everyone does not value you, me, themselves, life, or anything exactly as we do.

@shoptastic wrote:

The first batch of PPP loans were eligible for forgiveness at June's end and thus employers can lay people off they don't need now.

I think some wires are getting crossed. Loan forgiveness and the ability to layoff employees are not the same thing.. But yes, early PPP recipients can lay off employees, I was getting them mixed up with the large company funds. Those recipients can't layoff employees until 9/30, which means on 10/1 we will have a huge amount of newly unemployed workers.

What we *should* have done is provided funds for all those workers for 8 weeks and then shut the damn country down. As it is we wasted all that time and money and things will only get worse.

@bgriffin wrote:

I think some wires are getting crossed. Loan forgiveness and the ability to layoff employees are not the same thing.. But yes, early PPP recipients can lay off employees, I was getting them mixed up with the large company funds. Those recipients can't layoff employees until 9/30, which means on 10/1 we will have a huge amount of newly unemployed workers.

What we *should* have done is provided funds for all those workers for 8 weeks and then shut the damn country down. As it is we wasted all that time and money and things will only get worse.

It might just be semantics here, bgriffin, so no worries if it is. Just to restate what I meant in a possibly more clear way:

PPP loans required employers to keep their staff on during the duration/maturity time-frame of the loan. If employers followed all the rules, they could be eligible for PPP loan forgiveness/transition into a grant after the designated loan timeline.

So, yes, PPP recipients did have to keep employees on until the loans matured (the first batch of which was the end of June). After that, though, those companies could start to let people go. If they let them go beforehand, their loan forgiveness/grant transition would be in jeopardy.

I definitely think our partial lockdown (every state does their own thing) and partial bailouts were poorly designed and unfair. So many people needing bailouts never got them before funds dried up. On the corporate side, we're bailing out stupid companies that should not exist (at the very least, they would have failed in any run-of-the-mill recession). The Federal Reserve is buying corporate junk bonds with future tax-payer dollars. There is just a total unevenness to the bailouts. EVERYONE should have been bailed out imho in this medical pandemic.

This event is no one's fault. ...But, like always, Main Street gets screwed, as Wall Street and corporations get bailed out (just like 2008).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2020 05:10AM by shoptastic.