@roflwofl wrote:

@JASFLALMT wrote:

Yeah, but do you think he would pay even if you had photos of no valets present? If you have a phone number he could call to verify, what's the difference?

I actually do think Doug would pay if the OP had photographs showing either a closed location or a location with no valets. Or maybe had geoverify to document that he was phystically at the correct location. Of course, my belief is just based on my previous experience with NWLPC. I did an assignment for NWLPC a few years ago and the location was unexpectedly closed. It was supposed to be open. I had done a phone call that morning and was told it would be open. It was not. There was no apparent reason why it was not open but it was not. I took a tiimed, dated photograph of the dark, locked, obviously closed building. I got no questions and I was paid.

NWLPC has few jobs in my area, so it's been a couple years since I've done a shop for them. I have never done a parking shop for them so I don't know what the guidelines are. But I think a photograph or some documentation that proved the OP was physically at the location would have gotten him paid. One problem with using a recorded phone call is that it provides no documentation where the OP was when he made the phone call.

This is true. I appreciate the insight. I had called the day of, and also called yesterday. Both times I was told there was no valet anymore. To me, I'm most frustrated by the lack of follow up and verification with the location itself to verify that there even was someone working. I just don't like being so easily dismissed. But I'm mostly over it now. I honestly didn't expect this level of responses from people. I was really happy to see other people chiming in with positive remarks plus the criticism. It just helps me ensure that this won't happen again to me.

OK, I was just trying to help. The answer is simple. If the MSC calls the location and verifies a valet was indeed not available, then you should be paid. I would not let it go provided it does not say anything contrary in the guidelines.

@thefoxbox wrote:

@Madetoshop wrote:

Hmmmm, there have been several times where I've needed to park and a valet does not appear until I pull up and wait a few seconds. They come out immediately. I did one parking job recently (different MSC) and the instructions gave a phone number to call immediately if there was no valet present.

I have done these shops before. They have stands that are set up by the company. Even if no one was present, the stand itself would've been there.

I agree with roflwolf it would have been helpful if foxbox had taken photos. However, the OP stated that there were no instructions in the guidelines as to action to take if the shop couldn't be completed. I don't shop for this company, but I've experienced similar situations with other companies, and they've always given me the benefit of the doubt. Especially if I had a good track record with them.

I have shopped two times for a certain MSC and the locations were closed. One due to maintenance being done and another because it was Easter Sunday. When I scheduled those jobs, those days were available. There was a note in the guidelines that it was up to the shopper to verify open times. I thought since the days were available, they should be open. They weren't. Not paid and took pix. Got an apology but no money. That was OK, I had other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity.

One other MSC paid me $7 for a closed location. I had taken a pic and they asked me to fill out the survey and report that.

@PaulinMI wrote:

I agree with roflwolf it would have been helpful if foxbox had taken photos. However, the OP stated that there were no instructions in the guidelines as to action to take if the shop couldn't be completed. I don't shop for this company, but I've experienced similar situations with other companies, and they've always given me the benefit of the doubt. Especially if I had a good track record with them.

Thank you for the feedback. I have done shops for them before, always on time and always during the designated hours. I agree that a lack of "if you can't do the shop" policy kind of makes the experience a little more complicated should things go south. I've always appreciated notes where it tells me what actions to take if I cannot complete the shop.

With that said, my intent was never to insult Doug or the company. That's why I didn't mention it in the initial post. I just wish there were instructions for that occasion when an assignment was legitimately attempted but couldn't be completed. And I checked all four buildings on the property and seven different entrances.

@Madetoshop wrote:

I have shopped two times for a certain MSC and the locations were closed. One due to maintenance being done and another because it was Easter Sunday. When I scheduled those jobs, those days were available. There was a note in the guidelines that it was up to the shopper to verify open times. I thought since the days were available, they should be open. They weren't. Not paid and took pix. Got an apology but no money. That was OK, I had other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity.

One other MSC paid me $7 for a closed location. I had taken a pic and they asked me to fill out the survey and report that.

I feel like receiving feedback from a customer saying the valet wasn't present would've been something worth knowing for that client.

And I agree regarding proximity. If the shop had been anywhere near my other four shops for the day, I probably would've just let it roll off my back like water off of a duck :-) I just don't understand why there was no investigation into if there was even a valet working. The company would know... That's really the only thing still bothering me. But I like the easy money of valet shops. I'm actually sitting in downtown for a different company for a $40 valet shop and find them relaxing. I would've preferred to actually do the shop because I like the downtime.

@Madetoshop wrote:

That was OK, I had other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity.
.

So if you didn't have other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity, would it still have been okay? Not in my book. If you did everything you could in your power to complete the shop and were unsuccessful, you should get paid.

@JASFLALMT wrote:

@Madetoshop wrote:

That was OK, I had other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity.
.

So if you didn't have other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity, would it still have been okay? Not in my book. If you did everything you could in your power to complete the shop and were unsuccessful, you should get paid.

Thanks guys. At this point, you guys are putting more of a smile on my face than the payment I would've received for this assignment.

As a point of clarity (and not taking sides), this is not a rejected shop. It's a theoretically closed location. The OP was contracted to evaluate the valet and there was no valet present.

Unless the form has a specific question about if the valet was present or not, I don't understand why the shop was even submitted. I would have immediately contacted the MSC for further instructions if there was no valet present and no specific instructions on what to do if that was the case.

Some MSCs don't pay for closed locations. Some pay a lesser fee and others may pay the full rate. It's unfortunate that the location is far away, but that's simply not relevant in deciding if the shop should be paid or not, unless there was some pre-negotiated travel pay for going there.

Apparently the location has been shopped multiple times in the past so there's a few possibilities here; Either another shopper will locate a valet or the client will confirm that valet service is no longer provided at that location. If indeed there was no longer valet service offered, then I guess it would have to go to company policy on closed locations for what the OP should be paid.

I stated the guidelines said it was up to the shopper to verify open locations. No, it would've not been OK had it not stated that.

@JASFLALMT wrote:

@Madetoshop wrote:

That was OK, I had other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity.
.

So if you didn't have other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity, would it still have been okay? Not in my book. If you did everything you could in your power to complete the shop and were unsuccessful, you should get paid.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

As a point of clarity (and not taking sides), this is not a rejected shop. It's a theoretically closed location. The OP was contracted to evaluate the valet and there was no valet present.

Unless the form has a specific question about if the valet was present or not, I don't understand why the shop was even submitted. I would have immediately contacted the MSC for further instructions if there was no valet present and no specific instructions on what to do if that was the case.

Some MSCs don't pay for closed locations. Some pay a lesser fee and others may pay the full rate. It's unfortunate that the location is far away, but that's simply not relevant in deciding if the shop should be paid or not, unless there was some pre-negotiated travel pay for going there.

Apparently the location has been shopped multiple times in the past so there's a few possibilities here; Either another shopper will locate a valet or the client will confirm that valet service is no longer provided at that location. If indeed there was no longer valet service offered, then I guess it would have to go to company policy on closed locations for what the OP should be paid.

I agree. But as I said, no instructions were present that informed me what to do if I couldn't complete a shop. To me, the shop was to valet. I couldn't. I felt this information was useful to the client. The MSC feels differently. And I'm honestly ready to be done with it now. I'm at my second valet shop today earning another $40 (plus reimbursement) so this will soon be forgotten.

@thefoxbox wrote:

I agree. But as I said, no instructions were present that informed me what to do if I couldn't complete a shop. To me, the shop was to valet. I couldn't. I felt this information was useful to the client.

Understood, but your opinion about what a client might want to know is also not relevant. Your assignment was to evaluate the valet and you were not able to complete that assignment.

I think it's pretty standard in mystery shopping to contact the MSC if something unexpected occurs. Seems like you didn't contact them until after the shop was declined...correct?

@SteveSoCal wrote:

@thefoxbox wrote:

I agree. But as I said, no instructions were present that informed me what to do if I couldn't complete a shop. To me, the shop was to valet. I couldn't. I felt this information was useful to the client.

Understood, but your opinion about what a client might want to know is also not relevant. Your assignment was to evaluate the valet and you were not able to complete that assignment.

I think it's pretty standard in mystery shopping to contact the MSC if something unexpected occurs. Seems like you didn't contact them until after the shop was declined...correct?

if the employees didn't show up for work that day, an employer wouldn't want to know that information? I guess that is just an opinion .... But a weak one nonetheless.

I've always completed assignments to the best ability possible. If there was ever an occasion where I couldn't do a shop, and there were instructions, I contacted the MSC immediately. Perhaps this will encourage the MSC to put details in the shop instructions for what to do should a shop not be completed.

For the valet assignments I'm doing today, the instructions were clear if I weren't able to do them. I am to call the number immediately upon arrival should I not locate valet personnel. That is clear to me, and if I failed to follow those instructions, I would certainly not ask to get paid. Thankfully both of the valet shops I am doing today have employees working, and if they wouldn't have been present, I would've had a number to contact that's clear in my instructions for peace of mind.

@Madetoshop wrote:

I stated the guidelines said it was up to the shopper to verify open locations. No, it would've not been OK had it not stated that.

@JASFLALMT wrote:

@Madetoshop wrote:

That was OK, I had other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity.
.

So if you didn't have other jobs scheduled on the same day in proximity, would it still have been okay? Not in my book. If you did everything you could in your power to complete the shop and were unsuccessful, you should get paid.

I don't believe it was in the instructions that I had to call ahead of time, but I certainly will call in the future whenever I do shops for this MSC.

I'm curious. For anyone criticizing me, how many shops have you done? I'm not some lazy piece of ---- that is just faking attempts at assignments. When I go out to do shops, I am making $100-300 in a day not including reimbursements. I don't take this lightly. Any reputable MSC should provide instructions in case an assignment can't be completed. Failing to provide instructions should not be MY burden! If you cannot get past that, please stop replying.

We are contractors. I am fine with not getting benefits and having to deal with my own taxes come next year, but I expect to at least be given the benefit of the doubt should a situation sour and no instructions against me were given prior to the shop completion.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2017 09:37PM by thefoxbox.

First off...learn to take criticism. If your argument doesn't stand up to it, then it's probably a weak argument.

I'm not criticizing your ability to perform shops. I'm questioning your understanding of some basic essentials of the MS business..and business in general. You stated that you had a shop rejected, but seemed to have a poor understanding of what you were actually contracted to do....and keep falling back on your irrelevant opinion of what the client might want to know. What the client wanted to know was specific in the shop!

Take it out of the mystery shopping context and it might make more sense. If I contracted you to paint my house and when you showed up to the address I gave you, there was no longer a house there, would you expect a full payment for the paint job? Would you submit an invoice for the completed job, or contact me for clarification?

Do you think everyone who hires a painter should include instructions to contact them should there be no house present at the given location? No...because that's common sense. The number of shops you've completed is not related to that.

@thefoxbox wrote:

I'm curious. For anyone criticizing me, how many shops have you done?

foxbox, who are you talking to? I haven't actually seen anyone criticizing you. I thought we were all commenting and discussing. Several of us have offered opinions based our experience in MSing and with NWLPC. I notice you liked those opinions that agreed with yours, but surely you did not post simply to get posters to agree with you.

If you took my posts as ciriticism, I apologize. My comments were not meant as criticism, although I do think your documentation of the situation was lacking and I did point out what I believe would have gotten you paid. However, to answer the question, I have mystery shopped since 2010, performing just underr 7,000 shops.

@roflwofl wrote:

@thefoxbox wrote:

I'm curious. For anyone criticizing me, how many shops have you done?

foxbox, who are you talking to? I haven't actually seen anyone criticizing you. I thought we were all commenting and discussing. Several of us have offered opinions based our experience in MSing and with NWLPC. I notice you liked those opinions that agreed with yours, but surely you did not post simply to get posters to agree with you.

If you took my posts as ciriticism, I apologize. My comments were not meant as criticism, although I do think your documentation of the situation was lacking and I did point out what I believe would have gotten you paid. However, to answer the question, I have mystery shopped since 2010, performing just underr 7,000 shops.

Your posts were fine. I just find it odd that people keep stating that my main problem with the situation is an opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that no details were outlined on what to do should the valet not be present. That isn't an opinion. People keep throwing that word around like it has a place here.

@ SteveSoCal. I think you're taking your scenario to the level of absurdity. It sounds to me like the OP went above the level of expectations to try to complete the shop, i.e. checking multiple entrances and calling the location to verify if the service was available. While it may have been prudent to take a photo or try to call the scheduler, there is no guarantee the scheduler would have been available or if that would have changed the outcome. I don't think it would have been too much of a stretch to expect the MSC to call the location and try to verify the shopper's story, especially if they aren't providing clear guidelines on what to do in such a situation. Instead they chose to simply reject the report where it sounds like the situation was completely out of the shopper's control.

I'd really like to hear the MSC's side of this story, but from what I've heard in this post, this would not be a company I would be rushing to sign up with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2017 10:09PM by PaulinMI.

How is it absurd to suggest the OP contact the MSC before submitting an incomplete shop and expecting to get paid?

They apparently attempted the shop and made exhaustive efforts to locate the valet. I'm not arguing that. Submitting the incomplete shop and then expecting payment with no contact to the MSC is what I'm criticizing. That's the common sense part....

I'm aware that I am posting in a public forum. I have done so since the age of about 10 years old, so since the mid 90s. There's a difference between constructive criticism and pointless nitpicking. If some of you want to dwell on the fact that I did not complete the shop, that is truly your opinion. I went to the location, I observed that the appropriate employees of that company were not present, and to me, the shop was completed WITHIN THE INSTRUCTIONS PROVIDED. I have been on shops with several other companies where the target was not present and I was still paid. All of the shops where I was not able to complete the shop in the way the company might have intended gave me explicit instructions on what to do should the outcome not be favorable to the questions that were being asked of me. And until yesterday, I have been paid 100% of every shop that I have done which has been a few hundred total.

As I have stated, I actually enjoyed getting a lot of the feedback from people more so than the small payment for the shop itself that I would've been paid had this not turned into an issue. That information is useful and will help me in the future.

The ridiculous assumption that I'm overly sensitive to criticism holds no weight as this post now has about 50 replies and I have been actively involved in replying to everyone because I appreciate input, but if your opinion is that you don't think I did the shop, that is not useful to me, there is no beneficial outcome for me if you are trying to imply that I should not be paid for the shop because you don't think I completed it. As far as I'm concerned, I completed it. I went to the location. The employees that were supposed to be working there were not working there.

Some of you can keep wasting time this lovely Sunday evening attempting to criticize me without any use for criticism and that's fine, but I will no longer be replying to you. So maybe you'll get some marginal satisfaction out of seeing your own words on a screen that help absolutely no one.

To the 90% of you that have given me useful constructive criticism, I thank you. But after a certain amount of time, the time that I'm spending visiting this and replying to posts is actually more time than the amount of time that I'm spending on the survey for this assignment today that is paying me 3 times more than this one rejected assignment.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2017 10:16PM by thefoxbox.

@thefoxbox wrote:

If some of you want to dwell on the fact that I did not complete the shop, that is truly your opinion.

Sorry...I had to quote that to point out how absurd what you wrote was. You agree that it's a fact you didn't complete the assignment as intended and somehow there's an opinion component present.

The words, "As far as I'm concerned" make it pretty clear that you are stating an opinion, not me.

Sorry you didn't like the feedback that wasn't in agreement with you. I can assure you I have quite a bit more experience in the industry that you do and if you maintain that attitude, it's likely this will not be the only issue you encounter.

I'm not posting this for the OP. They clearly have no interest in learning from a mistake. I'm posting this for other shoppers that will learn something from reading this. Having a firm stance that only your opinion is correct is generally not a successful way to operate any business

@SteveSoCal wrote:

@thefoxbox wrote:

If some of you want to dwell on the fact that I did not complete the shop, that is truly your opinion.

Sorry...I had to quote that to point out how absurd what you wrote was. You agree that it's a fact you didn't complete the assignment as intended and somehow there's an opinion component present.

The words, "As far as I'm concerned" make it pretty clear that you are stating an opinion, not me.

Sorry you didn't like the feedback that wasn't in agreement with you. I can assure you I have quite a bit more experience in the industry that you do and if you maintain that attitude, it's likely this will not be the only issue you encounter.

I'm not posting this for the OP. They clearly have no interest in learning from a mistake. I'm posting this for other shoppers that will learn something from reading this. Having a firm stance that only your opinion is correct is generally not a successful way to operate any business

I am glad you feel satisfied. Good stuff. Have a fantastic day!

Setting aside the fact that no valet was present (and you wish you had taken a photo of the empty podium or valet shack) this is where you must learn one thing: When you said you drove a far distance that took one hour and paid tolls. To the client, it does not matter if you swam Lake Erie, encountered 3 toll booths, drove an hour up and back and had to fill your gas tank. The client does not care about that. Period. The client wants a full, correct report. You did not see valet in attendance and you did call before and after. I don't think anyone is beating you up about that. You did your due diligence except for providing a photo of the empty stand/podium/booth. If you went to a fast food place and it was demolished (happened to me) What would you do? A more seasoned shopper would whip out the camera and get angles of the machinery present, building materials or what was or was not there. I also grab a witness and try to get their name after I innocently ask what happened to ABC store and thank them, asking their name. I believe you said you were a newer shopper. Like I said, don't beat yourself up about this. Your lesson might be that you are never paid. You might get paid if you persist. Either way, I think everyone is trying to HELP you because we have all arrived to a deserted empty parking lot, a closed location or a demolished one. That was just my advice, think AHEAD ...what if?? what if it's closed? what if it's not the same business (sold to another) this possibility is with EVERY shop. That was my advice for today.

P.S. I drove 30 miles up and back, paid tolls and when I got back, my assignment had been cancelled during the drive up time! I was never paid or even offered the respect of an answer. Needless to say, I did not take any further assignments. It happens to all of us at one time or another, missing the email for a cancelled shop.

Setting aside the fact that no valet was present (and you wish you had taken a photo of the empty podium or valet shack) this is where you must learn one thing: When you said you drove a far distance that took one hour and paid tolls. To the client, it does not matter if you swam Lake Erie, encountered 3 toll booths, drove an hour up and back and had to fill your gas tank. The client does not care about that. Period. The client wants a full, correct report. You did not see valet in attendance and you did call before and after. I don't think anyone is beating you up about that. You did your due diligence except for providing a photo of the empty stand/podium/booth.

If you went to a fast food place and it was demolished (happened to me) What would you do? A more seasoned shopper would whip out the camera and get angles of the machinery present, building materials or what was or was not there. I also grab a witness and try to get their name after I innocently ask what happened to ABC store and thank them, asking their name. I believe you said you were a newer shopper. Like I said, don't beat yourself up about this.

Your lesson might be that you are never paid. You might get paid if you persist. Either way, I think everyone is trying to HELP you because we have all arrived to a deserted empty parking lot, a closed location or a demolished one. That was just my advice, think AHEAD ...what if?? what if it's closed? what if it's not the same business (sold to another) this possibility is with EVERY shop. That was my advice for today.

P.S. I drove 30 miles up and back, paid tolls and when I got back, my assignment had been cancelled during the drive up time! I was never paid or even offered the respect of an answer. Needless to say, I did not take any further assignments. It happens to all of us at one time or another, missing the email for a cancelled shop.

You can't get it through your head that no instructions were given to me should I show up and not be able to complete the assignment in the way they intended. I'm not going to argue with you. Because of this one assignment, I now have to call every shop I'm going to. And then some of them may say they don't have valet, like this one, and I may get terminated. If none of that bothers you, you really should look into being an employee of this company.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2017 10:33PM by thefoxbox.

@SunnyDays2 wrote:

Setting aside the fact that no valet was present (and you wish you had taken a photo of the empty podium or valet shack) this is where you must learn one thing: When you said you drove a far distance that took one hour and paid tolls. To the client, it does not matter if you swam Lake Erie, encountered 3 toll booths, drove an hour up and back and had to fill your gas tank. The client does not care about that. Period. The client wants a full, correct report. You did not see valet in attendance and you did call before and after. I don't think anyone is beating you up about that. You did your due diligence except for providing a photo of the empty stand/podium/booth.

If you went to a fast food place and it was demolished (happened to me) What would you do? A more seasoned shopper would whip out the camera and get angles of the machinery present, building materials or what was or was not there. I also grab a witness and try to get their name after I innocently ask what happened to ABC store and thank them, asking their name. I believe you said you were a newer shopper. Like I said, don't beat yourself up about this.

Your lesson might be that you are never paid. You might get paid if you persist. Either way, I think everyone is trying to HELP you because we have all arrived to a deserted empty parking lot, a closed location or a demolished one. That was just my advice, think AHEAD ...what if?? what if it's closed? what if it's not the same business (sold to another) this possibility is with EVERY shop. That was my advice for today.

P.S. I drove 30 miles up and back, paid tolls and when I got back, my assignment had been cancelled during the drive up time! I was never paid or even offered the respect of an answer. Needless to say, I did not take any further assignments. It happens to all of us at one time or another, missing the email for a cancelled shop.

Thank you. This comment is golden. To the others who seemingly have no tact, look to this comment. The criticism was fair and productive. Maybe a few of you can learn something. Thank you for the feedback :-)

Steve, I was not calling your point absurd, but your analogy. It wasn't like the hospital wasn't there. This would be more like if you paid me to paint your house on a certain day, and I showed up, but you weren't home to let me in. I still think the MSC could have easily checked this out.

OP, I'm sorry your time was wasted, been there, done that! I find it peculiar that the shop instructions provided you with no directions in case the valet was not there.

I had a similar situation. I was doing a ff shop. It was a lunch shop. The shop instructions required me to confirm business hours. I went to the website after calling twice and not getting anyone on the phone. The website listed the hours on Saturday from 10-2pm. The shop instructions stated any day lunch time. I go to the restaurant, learned that was closed. I immediately took a photo, geo verified (although it was not required) and emailed the scheduler while I was still on site, took a screenshot of the website's hours of operation. I went home and filled out the report. I checked the status of my shop and it says received. A week goes by and I don't have a score. I email the scheduler asking for the status of the shop. The scheduler responded, it was cancelled and not sent to the client because the shop was not completed. I calmly replied that I followed the shop instructions to verify the hours of operation. I also asked the scheduler if the client knew their website was reporting inaccurate hours. Guess what? I'm not getting paid for that shop, the scheduler did not ask if I wanted to reschedule and my application for a different shop is pending.

Moral of the story? Sometimes even when doing EVERYTHING possible, it's out of your control. Learning whether you are valued by the MSC is way more important to me than the little $ I would have received. I'm glad you feel received valuable feedback here, I've shared my story to let you know it really doesn't matter if you took photos. The MSC can easily verify if the location no longer has a valet. IMO that is a poor excuse not to pay you.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2017 10:45PM by eyelove2shop.

@eyelove2shop wrote:

OP, I'm sorry your time was wasted, been there, done that! I find it peculiar that the shop instructions provided you with no directions in case the valet was not there.

I had a similar situation. I was doing a ff shop. It was a lunch shop. The shop instructions required me to confirm business hours. I went to the website after calling twice and not getting anyone on the phone. The website listed the hours on Saturday from 10-2pm. The shop instructions stated any day lunch time. I go to the restaurant, learned that was closed. I immediately took a photo, geo verified (although it was not required) and emailed the scheduler while I was still on site, took a screenshot of the website's hours of operation. I went home and filled out the report. I checked the status of my shop and it says received. A week goes by and I don't have a score. I email the scheduler asking for the status of the shop. The scheduler responded, it was cancelled and not sent to the client because the shop was not completed. I calmly replied that I followed the shop instructions to verify the hours of operation. I also asked the scheduler if the client knew their website was reporting inaccurate hours. Guess what? I'm not getting paid for that shop, the scheduler did not ask if I wanted to reschedule and my application for a different shop is pending.

Moral of the story? Sometimes even when doing EVERYTHING possible, it's out of your control. Learning whether you are valued by the MSC is way more important to me than the little $ I would have received. I'm glad you feel received valuable feedback here, I've shared my story to let you know it really doesn't matter if you took photos. The MSC can easily verify if the location no longer has a valet. IMO that is a poor excuse not to pay you.

Thanks for your story. Some people just want to throw stones without giving any useful feedback. I hope I've empowered them. Others, like you, provide useful information. I find it strange how the MSC will seemingly bend over backwards if a client tells them they want a shop done but don't inform the MSC that the location no longer exists. How is that our fault? Just feels weird to me to have this happen.