Hoju Wrote:
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> Some think it's smart business. Others are
> desperate for money. The former are foolish. The
> latter, honestly, I can't blame them. But that
> doesn't make it any better.

In another thread (see GFK under company discussions), Hoju mentioned not being able to blame desperate shoppers for taking shops with low fees. With all due respect, you, Desperate Shopper, are only hurting yourself.

You are usually desperate due to your own actions. Please don't take this as a personal attack as I don't mean to be harsh. A "desperate" shopper who travels 25 miles to do a $7.50 shop is only making his situation worse. You have $13 of vehicle expenses, but you don't measure the wear and tear on your car, only the gas. In the end, the desperate shopper becomes even more desperate when the fuel pump goes out on his car and he doesn't have the money to get it fixed. It's his own fault, but he blindly fails to realize he puts himself in that position.

Similarly, not accounting for EVERY FACET OF YOUR TIME hurts you, too. I've been guilty of this. Imagine you are an employee at McDonald's. Your schedule is from 6 AM until 2 PM, but at 2 PM your manager asks you to sweep the parking lot and take out the trash. Guess what? You stay on the clock until you are done. As a shopper, sometimes I only consider the time I am out performing the shop as the basis for what I want to get paid. However, when the MSC asks me to write a report, and to create my own work schedule, and to "sweep up" a report that needs clarification, I am spending my time to do so. Before I accept a shop, I have to account for these extraneous items that add to my time commitment for a job.

I subscribe to the notion of "survival of the fittest." The desperate shopper eventually gets weeded out of the mystery shopping gene pool (sometimes only temporarily depending on how stubborn he is) when he 1) has no money to front reimbursed expenses or 2) encounters a business expense for which he has not anticipated and cannot pay.

When you say the shop only takes 20 minutes, are you including the time it took to find the job, apply for it, read the guidelines, do the work, drive time, report submission, and follow-up clarification? Have you accounted for the ink in your printer? Or the electricity your computer consumes while you work? Or the wear and tear on all your tools (car, computer, printer, etc.)?

If you operate your mystery shopping business LIKE A BUSINESS, you will succeed. You'll do great. You won't stress out as easily. You will have balance. It isn't a lucky break when a shopper finds a plum job; it's due to their own persistence and hard work.

Finally, it isn't our problem if a MSC underbid a project, so we should not feel guilty about passing on a job that does not pay enough. I won't shop a car dealership for $14 (or $17 or $20). I won't eat at Dairy Queen for $3. Maybe there are enough shoppers out there who will. If, after reading this, you're one of them, by all means, happy shopping! I'll let the desperate shoppers have those jobs since it expedites the process of eliminating them from the shopper pool. Just don't tell me the ice cream (or Big Mac, or Sonic Burger) somehow provides nourishment your body needs and should therefore be accounted for in the total fee.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2014 02:56PM by jonk.

I think jonk's post above deserves a "sticky"...

I think my initial comment requires a little clarification. Although I TOTALLY agree with you, there are times when I can understand some people being desperate enough to work for less than minimum wage (I've never done it intentionally). That doesn't account for people who run their business poorly, which seem to be the people you describe. Those are the foolish. The ones that don't recognize that time is money and expenses exist.

The problem is that although they will be weeded out over time, there will always be a fresh stock of new shoppers making all the same mistakes. That is what the MSC's are banking on.

When times are tough and that $17 is the difference between feeding your kids and going hungry, then I can't blame people that take them.

Man, we really like to use that $17 car shop as the shining example of terrible compensation, don't we?

@jonk - True words. MSing is a source of income, and free cash flow generating machine, but not necessarily a business. Indeed, there are costs to consider, and you even forgot to mention taxes and other personal expenses. If you operate your MS "business" as a business you have to have a clear picture of your income, operating expenses, cost of sale, and earnings. You even have to factor in reimbursements not as such but as "barter", which do account into your earnings statements.

However, figuring out EBITDA or even revenues, computing in costs or other factors is usually something not easy for most of the shoppers around.

The desperate people, you must understand, are making ends meet. Some times, you have to take a hit on your EBITDA within your business if you need to get some FCF (Free cash flow) - AKA, make ends meet on the short run, if you believe that within a short time frame you would be able to get into a better financial scenario (Eg: get a better paying job, inherit some money or rob a bank).

Natural selection will eventually kill those desperate shoppers, but meanwhile, they are making ends meet. They might be hurting their long term financial position, but meanwhile their (our) families get to have 3 hot meals every day.

My 2 cents.

One thing is for absolute certain- This will be a hotly debated thread.

Yes, the $17 car shop represents the epitome of low fees. There are still at least 3 MSC that I know of that pay $60 or more to shop car dealerships. To top it off, I find the reports easier on the higher paying jobs. What the $17 has going for it is there is no required purchase, so even shoppers with no startup funds can try them out.

Shoppers ought to add something to their required fee for these shops for the risk involved with test driving a vehicle (assuming a test drive is part of the shop). What do you think happens if you wreck the car while you are driving it? I command at least $10 to account for this risk alone, even if there is a chance I won't be held responsible if something happened.

I also command a premium for dealing with pushy salespeople, but that's just me.

To be honest, I look to try and make at least 1k a month. I can do this with 30 - 50 shops for the month. This normally translates to less then 10 days a month. January had 8 days and $1430. Feb was difficult for a myriad of reasons however I still did $800 and 8 days of work. I work about 8 hours each day. some days are closer to 10 or 12 hours after shop, input and travel times. I agree that there is a learning curve and many new shoppers will give up half way through however if you are persistent and not desperate you can use this a "profession". That to me is the key perseverance and not desperation.

President Kimbel of the LDS Church: Endure to the Beginning not to the end for each new end is really a new beginning. (I am paraphrasing here)

Cabazan,

Charlie Munger (Warren Buffett's sidekick) refers to EBITDA as "bullsh-t earnings," mainly because depreciation, taxes, interest and amortization are real costs of doing business. BTW, you are right that I left off a couple of major expenses. Just finished my taxes a couple weeks ago and was reminded that as an IC, I get to pay 15.3% of my earnings for FICA, twice what employees are responsible for).

I agree with you that sometimes you have to take a small hit when you start out to establish your reputation and get noticed. That is definitely the case for the companies that offer better jobs - they want to see how you do with the smaller ones before they offer you the better work. However, (apologies for picking on them), can anyone tell me that Intellishop has a secret list of higher paying work that they offer if you prove yourself with their other jobs? Don't get me wrong, Intellishop isn't a bad company. They are actually smart in many ways. They continuously adjust their fees to meet supply and demand. It's shrewd business. Plus, as I have learned a time or two, they expect quality work. If you turn in crap, you'll be hearing from an editor.

I just hate to think there are shoppers who continue to take low-paying jobs and undercut their true worth. Sure, it hurts them. But it hurts me, too, when it brings down the average fee that is offered.

There is also the pleasure factor. Yesterday, among my other "paying" shops, I did two for pleasure: Ugg and Aveda. They were reimbursement only but in return I received products I want but cannot always afford and I enjoyed shopping in an upscale area.

The same can be said about a regular job. Maybe you make $30 an hour but at the end of the day how much are you really making after you factor in the costs of childcare, transportation, higher tax bracket (if you are the second income), work clothes, eating lunch out, office social stuff like baby showers and birthday parties, work tools, stress, less time with family, etc.

I will be the first to say that MSCs get away with low fees and some of the other crap a few try to get away with because we allow it but at the same time we all have different things we value. For example, I have done exactly one movie shop and likely will never do another. To me, having to leave the movie twice to check the restroom and buy popcorn takes the intrinsic value away from the shop and I'm not going to spend three hours anywhere for $10 and reimbursement for overpriced junk food.

On the other hand, I am more than willing to trade a half hour of report writing and my time and gas for a nice meal. But just like I cannot spend money from a regular job on a fancy restaurant every day, I can't trade my time either. But again, I'm willing once in a while for the intrinsic value it brings me.

So, how do you do the bookkeeping on 'educational time'? If I were having to take a course to learn to do something, in order to get skills for the work I wanted to do, I would hardly demand that I earn pay for taking the course.

This forum says that we are, and should think of ourselves as, a small business. Startup small businesses often run in the red--conventional wisdom says to plan for up to two years in the red, before making a profit.

I've done this for four months. Here's a few comments from my limited experience.

I signed up for a company, and saw assignments I wanted very much, but they all needed a shopper rating of 8. So, when I saw an assignment that only needed a '5' I grabbed it, even though it was not enough driving to make it profitable. That raised my shopper rating to where I could apply to the ones I wanted--and they're one of my best assignments so far.

I did assignments for another company without any particular concern for profitability, just anything that was available, and got self-assign privileges... I expect to make a lot of money doing work for them this year, much more than I would have made if I had held out for profitability on those first assignments.

I did an audit for another company. They paid $7.00. I spent an hour doing it, and then I had to do the report, and resize the photos, one by one. That was a really stupid thing to do, right? I thought so too. But, when I saw the same audit offered recently for $30.00, I pounced on it with lightning speed. It fit beautifully into the route I'd planned for the day....and it took me under a half hour. The report went fast, and I do batch resizing on the photos, now.

I think that in all these cases, I did the right thing in taking the original unprofitable assignment.

There's definitely a difference between shops you do for pleasure and those you do for income. I hope nobody shops Exxon or Shell for the pleasurable experience of visiting a gas station! LOL.

I call these "lifestyle" shops. I shop Regal Cinemas because I love going to the movies. The shop form is so simple and I get to bring a friend to see whatever we want. Cool beans! I'll also trade a meal at a restaurant I've been meaning to try for a reasonable report with a $5 or $10 fee. Similarly, my fee for the timeshare shops I just did in Hawaii was not very high, but the airfare, parking, rental car and lodging reimbursements made it totally worth it for me.

My soapbox rant was directed more at the shops few us would consider "fun." You know, the ones that feel like work. For those, I expect to be compensated properly.

There are courses people take on their own time and their own dime. However, most companies pay employees when learning something specific to that job and that company.

Out of my three ongoing projects, the training for two of them was on my own time and one of the companies occasionally has conference calls with the expectation that will also be unpaid time. The third paid me and all my travel expenses for a full training. Any ongoing training or conference calls are also paid.

So while we are independent business owners, we are unique because most of the time other ICs do not have to spend an inordinate amount of time training for each specific job with each of their clients. The good news is once you have been doing this long enough, the training becomes minimal. I read where shoppers are spending 20 or 30 minutes studying guidelines for each and every shop. Once you realize the similarities between most mystery shops that time is cut drastically.

Ishmael Wrote:
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> So, how do you do the bookkeeping on 'educational
> time'? If I were having to take a course to learn
> to do something, in order to get skills for the
> work I wanted to do, I would hardly demand that I
> earn pay for taking the course.

When I build a route, I often accept "cheap" shops to fill in the day. If I'm driving 200 miles for a shop I'm getting $60 for, and a second shop for $50, I'll take that DIY shop at the offered rate, and maybe
pick up a cinnamon roll, a car-hop place, a sandwich place, a gas station or two -- all in the same town, to bring the day's
total up to the $200 I need.

Especially if the "cheap" shop is the first one I'm doing for a new company (which happens pretty often lately, as I've recently been making an effort to sign on with as many new companies as possible), to
get my foot in the door, so to speak, or to earn self-assign privileges.

And when I get my cellphone actually activated (LOL!!!), believe you me, I'll be trying those shopping apps for all they are worth!



cease

If I have to spend more than ten minutes figuring out what I have to do on a shop, that shop is not for me. Thus, I will never do a Papa John's shop because I think the instructions are ridiculous.

Mangling a pizza renders it unfit to be considered a "perk." In my area, those shops get snapped up, so other people must not mind flipping and folding their food to get perfect photos.

I was tempted to take a DQ for three bucks during a recent route because I would be out in BFE and there would be few choices for lunch. I talked myself out of it, though, because of their algorithm. This is time of year they start at three bucks at the beginning of the month and just sit there. In a few months, once they have sat and sat on the board, the fees start going up earlier in the month. New folks might not know this, and may not realize that taking it low one month may prevent the shop from having a decent offering later.

Papa John's here get bonused to $25 plus reimbursement. Alas and alack, I do not qualify for them. When I did, I didn't have any problem with flipping the pieces, taking the photos, and flipping them back! Heck, for $25, I'd throw half the pizza away, and still come out ahead!



cease

I often take shops that pay small amounts, usually because I primarily shop restaraunts. If I can get a reimbursal and I'm going to a shop that's not that far away, then it's not a big deal for me. Mystery shopping isn't necessarily seen as an income source for everyone.

So if it's not a source of income, then what is it?

As a new shopper, you are anxious to prove yourself. Schedulers seem to expect that. I've had many a phone call saying things like, once you complete 5 jobs for us you will be able to apply for better shops. That being said I try to look at the big picture. No, I won't do DQ for 3.00. Yes, I might have enjoyed a frozen treat in the middle of March while we still have snow on the ground(sarcasm here) but even if I am in the area my time is worth more then that and you must think I'm an idiot to even suggest I do a shop for that low fee. So by that train of thought why work with that MSC? You can't think much of your shoppers if you start fees that low and who wants to work with anyone who makes it clear they don't respect you or your time?

I recently had a string of shop fails(appointments for audits that got cancelled,showing up and the person isn't there,etc) and it occurred to me I didn't just lose out on the shop fee but I lost out on my time. So I wondered is there an app or software I could use to "punch in" for assignments? I figured a month of doing that will give me a much better idea of how long an assignment takes me or how many hours a day/week/month I spend on MS activities.
That way when I compare my time punched in to my shop fees at the end of the month I can have a clear picture of what I earned that month. March was a rough month for me with health issues, crazy weather, and my parter getting injured at work. So I definitely need to step it up in April but I won't be doing that 3.00 at a time or at the expense of my self worth.

This is indeed a topic that frequently arises, especially when shoppers are infuriated that 'somebody took my job' before it could be adequately bonused for them because nobody wanted it.

I began mystery shopping when I was in high school except back then we called it 'market research'. It was great summer and weekend work and was done hourly rather than as piece work. I returned to it when I took early retirement and have continued into full retirement. In early retirement its function was to keep me from going through assets too fast because the cost of health insurance was far greater than what I had planned for and in full retirement it is lifestyle additions, though it has also meant that funds set aside for retirement have hardly been touched. Each of us has our needs and a variety of needs can be met through mystery shopping.

I have deep respect for those who are trying to juggle children while adding to household income, for those whose health makes them virtually unemployable otherwise, for those who are trying to set aside money for a special purpose (wedding, retirement, vacation, education, etc.), and for those who are just trying to keep it all together and keep the bills paid. This can be a very difficult and convoluted way to make a few bucks. Most successful shoppers I have seen that have hung in there through the years are folks with financial flexibility and skills that would be welcome in most any office environment. And while there are road warriors who make 'a good income' shopping, my intuition tells me that they would command a higher income as a salaried employee.

While it may seem nonsensical to chase cheap jobs with companies that pay quickly, it may make very good sense to trade the wear and tear on your vehicle as well as the expenditure of your time to have the cash to pay the electric or heating bill next month. Hopefully it is a conscious decision rather than a continuing need.

It goes without saying that the power to say 'no' to jobs comes from not needing those jobs to pay the most immediate of needs. Very few of us save as much as we should. Recent studies indicate that only about one-third of Americans are living within their means and only about half of those have any specific savings plan for any goal. Thirty-six percent of workers and retirees have less than $1000 saved or invested for retirement. And of course few mystery shoppers are earning credit towards their Social Security from shopping, so this really makes shopping viable as a supplement to current income rather than building for a future.

I was so happy to get a HD Motorcycle shop and was pleased to take my parents (who ride). (I live away from them and happened to be in town) I let them in on the fact that it was a shop, but it was also for the fun factor.

This was the first Harley shop I had ever done, and when I went home I wrote up the report. SInce it was the first one I wrote a lot and a slightly negative thing happened which as you know takes up more time to write.

Afterwards I was done and submitted. My dad turned to me and said, "how much did you get for doing that?" I said that it was a twenty five dollar shop. He said, 'that is NOT worth all of the effort you went through'

Well, I explained to him that for this shop it was a payment, but it was also the fun factor of getting to go to a Harley dealership with them, I learned about some of their bikes, got to sit on a few cool new ones, and learned a lot about the accessories they had to offer. I also got to spend time with my parents and have a good memory. For all those reasons I did the shop.

My dad, who's a businessman could not reconcile this. I told him that if I were doing it alone I would have picked up other shops in the area as well.

So you see, it's for a variety of reasons. I truly truly enjoy mystery shopping and that's why I do it. If they want me to go to Krispy Kreme - hey, I'm all in!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2014 05:16PM by Chix.

Hoju Wrote:
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> So if it's not a source of income, then what is
> it?

A source of lifestyle. Before the kids came along, my husband and I would take weekend getaways without spending a dime. Hotels stays, dinners, and a couple shops to cover the gas meant we could do fun things while still paying off our student loans and other debts. It was a nice compromise between taking care of our debt snowball and having a little fun once in a while.

Reimbursement shops are totally different than income shops. You don't shop a restaurant because you're going to get big bucks doing it. You do it for a night out at a nice restaurant. We're talking about shops that pay a fee and little more for work that is not particularly enjoyable, but actual work.

So there are quite a few of us here that have been doing this for years now. In my own experience...

1. I started doing reviews / mystery shopping for editorial reasons, and my pay was based on salary rather than shop fee. I had a series of businesses assigned that needed to be shopped to be featured on a magazine. Back then, in 1997 it was a cool job, with great perks and a good pay. I hadn't have to "build a reputation" with any MSC, but I did with a tougher audience - magazine readers. So I learned to work on narratives and make them fun and interesting, and could put some personal opinion out there. It was not just a source of income, but also a lifestyle. That lifestyle is what kept me working part time on MSing until recently when I had to move again to full time.

2. Being that it is a lifestyle for me AND a main source of income, I have to be very careful and selective with MSCs and jobs. No, I would not take a $17 car dealer. I hate those shops, and I personally dislike that MSC. I have set my standards to a different level: I would usually take shops over $20 when local, and above $60 when on a route. I usually would require at least 2 $60 shops to take route. Since I have to drive around, I consider the time invested and try NOT to schedule filler shops that pay little and take lots of time to be reported. That means, I'd rather drive, finish 2 shops, and get back ASAP. I would finish my day close to home with $20 - $40 shops. I try to make at least $200 on any given day.

3. My typical shops are divided in 3 categories:
a) Anchor shops - all those that pay anywhere from $60 to $300 (as much as I've been paid for a 1 day shop) that can be completed on a single day. These include banks, apartments, new homes video shops, and time shares.
b) Filler shops. Those that pay anywhere from $20 to $59, or in case of phone shops, any shop that would pay $5 or more without narratives requirements.
c) Leisure shops - FF, fine dining, hotels.
I usually take them in that order. If a shop does not fit into the above categories, it's not for me. I tend to stay away from the leisure shops on a regular basis, but do pamper myself every once in a while. That means, I no longer look for the Coyle shops actively. I'd rather focus on income. After all I do need to finish my month with at least $3K in income, ideally $4K. Doable? Yes, but its not easy.

4. There is no #4.

5. I do work on ancillary sources of income. Some times I am unable to reach my $3K goal, so I have to complement it by writing stories for local newspapers / magazines, and by feeding my blogs, one of them a "lifestyle" blog in which I feature reviews of certain venues. These blogs generate advertising dollars. Also, on weekends, when my usual shops are not available, I drive a UberX car, which does bring in some additional bucks.

So, yes, I have to work hard to make ends meet, but I no longer put a dent on my future income.

So the time spent writing the report for the fancy restaurant is not "work"?


Hoju Wrote:
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> Reimbursement shops are totally different than
> income shops. You don't shop a restaurant because
> you're going to get big bucks doing it. You do it
> for a night out at a nice restaurant. We're
> talking about shops that pay a fee and little more
> for work that is not particularly enjoyable, but
> actual work.

@CANADAMOMMY - It is - You are "bartering" your work for food.

You barter all you want. I will use a coupon and skip that report.

cabazan Wrote:
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> @CANADAMOMMY - It is - You are "bartering" your
> work for food.

The one element is that the "newbies" are taking shops left and right, regardless of their pay.

I was once a newbie.

For me, it took a little bit to figure out that some of these jobs were too time consuming, with numerous pages of narratives, gas use, printer use, costs, all for a small fee.

It takes "experience" to learn how to walk away (or not accept) an assignment, that is going to cause you grief.

Speaking of desperate shoppers, I wonder how many of them will pick up the novelty store shops that Ritter just got (used to belong to Service Sleuth) that still pay the same crappy $7 plus up to $5 reimbursement?

I finally got sick of Intelli-Shop's "Top Gun" excessive emails and sent them to the spam box. If you want me to be a "Top Gun", pay me like one. $17, 20 or even 30 isn't cutting it.

I shop to add to my income, not because I'm bored. I also do inbound customer service. I took my lumps with cheap shops early, however, a friendly scheduler took me under their wing and taught me the ropes. When I take their shops, I don't even have to ask for a bonus, because they ask me how much it would take for me to do the shop; they don't insult my time or my intelligence.

Those previously mentioned novelty shops, I was making $37 plus reimbursement; my wife does most of the car shops, and she never gets paid less than $40. Banks, I get $30 for account inquiry, $30 for teller shops and $50+ for account openings (I'm cheap on these because I'm usually awarded routes and my fuel expenses and tolls are separate).

I figure the best way is determine what you're worth and don't settle for less. The exception to this is when you do shops for a MSC that is unfamiliar with your work... sometimes you have to prove you're worth it.

In addition, there are cheaper shops I will take when already on a route. I love pretzel shops; I can usually grab $12-15 plus reimbursement on these shops and they are simple.

Wow location must really make a difference in job fees. One day if your bored Dante look up some of your same favorite shops but in Illinois. Those fees just don't happen in Chicago. Now if I was willing to travel 200 miles to do a 40.00 mattress shop maybe I'd start to see fees like that. Cell phone shops here start and get assigned at 8.00-15.00. Pretzel shops start going off the board at 5.00 plus reimbursement.