I saw a news story today and I thought that I would pose a question to you all. What does it mean to be a Contract Worker? What does it mean to be an Employee. What protection do you have if you don't get your payments? Who do you file a complaint with? What is the chain of command to get your payment? Anyway, just trying to find out rules because if you start digging for information you will quickly realize one has NO rights.

Here is a news story from NBC NEWS in regards to Independent Contractors
[www.youtube.com]

Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:00AM by scorpionshar777.

Many mystery shoppers prefer to make their own work schedule and choices so the Independent Contractor status works best for them. There are many threads addressing this issue if you search. There is a thread near the top of the Mystery shop Company Discussion forum page that starts with Welp ACL. There are answers to many of your questions in that thread.

Why?

Hey SandyF!
Yes I thought they were speaking more about a specific company. This thread is about the LEGAL definition of what it means to be a I.C. (Independent Contractor)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:01AM by scorpionshar777.

This person explains it BEST. This is legal definition
[www.youtube.com]

or type in #DiscoverYourRights
Independent Contractor vs. Employee: What's the Difference? (YOUTUBE)

[www.youtube.com]

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:02AM by scorpionshar777.

Two California Bills Address Independent Contractor Misclassification

[www.shrm.org]

GREAT info thanks for sharing it.

Type in this on YT California Supreme Court Rules on Gig Workers

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:07AM by scorpionshar777.

Scorpion, in this business I have always made my own schedule. There has never been a time when a company I was signed with gave me an assignment and told me to do it at a specific time. I look at assignments, see if the timing is good for me, the pay, and all the other parameters and then agree/apply to it if I like what I see. Some of the other parts of the definition of Independent might not be met but the make my own schedule is met for the jobs I do.

@sandyf wrote:

Scorpion, in this business I have always made my own schedule. There has never been a time when a company I was signed with gave me an assignment and told me to do it at a specific time. I look at assignments, see if the timing is good for me, the pay, and all the other parameters and then agree/apply to it if I like what I see. Some of the other parts of the definition of Independent might not be met but the make my own schedule is met for the jobs I do.

I've had many companies, especially restaurant and fast food places, that set days, times and what you can order. Also other shops tell you to only ask certain questions.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2019 04:25AM by johnb974.

Yes, John, they do set that stuff but they do not assign those jobs to me. I have to ask for them if I like the hours etc. An employee does not get to choose which restaurant they want to go to or what hours they want to work. If I do not want to work at 1-2 PM I just do not take that job. If I do not want to work on Tuesday I just don't ask for the job. If I don't want to order two hot dogs and three orders of fries I just don't ask for that job.

That could be said of any Independent Contractor. Microsoft tried to get away with this with certain employees. We'll have to see how the new laws define Independent Contractor. With the courts, politicians and judges, there's no way to tell how they will rule. Many of them have no idea what mystery shopping is.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2019 04:36AM by johnb974.

[www.rhdtlaw.com]

Excerpt:

"It is important to keep in mind that signing a written independent contractor agreement does not make a person an independent contractor under the law. Instead, government agencies (such as the DLSE) and the courts will look at the interactions between the parties and the nature of the work performed to determine whether the relationship between the parties is actually an employer-employee relationship. If an independent contractor agreement contains provisions specifying the way in which the “contractor” is to perform the work under the contract and the means by which the contractor is to perform the work, the contract may itself be evidence of an employer-employee relationship."

Well I think that if you all get a chance to review the information or if you can SEARCH on Youtube these words California Supreme Court Rules on Gig Workers

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:08AM by scorpionshar777.

Yes and No. But they have what they call the ABC TEST look it up on IRS.Gov. You can see the actual test that they use to determine. I've posted all of the links but you can just do a search as you should always do your own research.
or type in search on YT these words: Classifying Independent Contractors vs. Employees - The "ABC" Test

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:05AM by scorpionshar777.

I am a contract worker because:
* I choose when I work and set my own schedule. If an MSC has work that does not fit into my schedule, I simply don't take the assignment. No MSC can demand that I take any particular shop. It's totally MY call.
* I negotiate payment for shops on an individual basis. If the MSC and I do not come to terms, I don't do the shop.
* I am registered with some 130 MSC's. I have done work for about 50 of them. I've worked for about 30 so far this year.
* If I don't like the way an MSC interacts with me, I simply choose to ignore and not work with them. I don't have to quit, resign, etc. I simply choose not to work with them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2019 05:46AM by MFJohnston.

MFJOHNSTON
AWESOME that's exactly how you should do it. NOW go get more info and cross check what you just wrote down using the new IRS ABC TEST.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:08AM by scorpionshar777.

No Scorionshar777. That is not at all what my mystery shop life looks like. I get to choose when and where and how I want to work. If I only want to work on Saturday it would severely limit my ability to make much money but I could certainly choose to do that. If I only wanted to wear shorts to work, again I would have to sacrifice but I could do that too.
I am not sure if you know anyone who works as a true Independent Contractor in a job that is not part of the gig economy and will probably not be challenged by the IRS but there are some established types of jobs people have. No, you cannot hope to be able to totally make your own hours and wear whatever you want to. You need to be presentable for the industry you work in. If those you have to meet with wear coat and tie and you show up in a bathing suit or ratty shorts you can bet they will probably not hire you again. And if you hope to be able to make a good income you often have to conform and be available to attend meetings with others who work a Mon-Friday work week. AND you have deadlines. If you accept a job with someone as an independent contractor you cannot just decide it is going to take you a month longer than the agreement you made with the person paying you. You cannot lay around on the beach 6 days a week and never go to a meeting because there are none at your favorite work times of Saturday afternoon and midnight to 4 AM. Sure if your independent job is writing books without having to meet anyone you could but most jobs, independent or not are not like that. So dream on to think independent people can all make a living sleeping in all day and working the midnight to 3 shift in their jammies. A few types can but not most. I guess if your dream job is in the middle of the night wearing whatever costume you want you could work at a strip club independently. There are always rules set by the person hiring you. An independent painter, plumber??? etc. you need to show up on time when your homeowner paying you is available and wear the appropriate, probably mostly clean clothes and not leave for a 3 hour lunch because you feel like it.
I am not saying that mystery shopping will be decided to be Independent by the IRS. All I am saying is the part of the definition that describes the ability to not be controlled is how my mystery shopping works.

Please remember that NO SINGLE rule is used to determine IC vs employee status in 99% of the law governing this distinction !! In addition, always remember that an IC can elect not to take and assignment; an employee risks termination for refusing an assignment, the time or date of the assignment, or many other factors. An employee can be told, "You are now going to work only 3rd shift for a year, or be terminated." An IC can look at the timing offered for a shop and just not take it. I totally ignore the 3rd shift garage parking shops at airports; no consequences.

Thanks for your post. Great points but which laws are you talking about? Right now we are speaking about ABC Test 2019 IRS.gov that now determines who is employee and who is an independent contract worker; based on the new California ruling that clearly used ABC Test from IRS to define who is employee and who is independent contractor.


Cheers

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:09AM by scorpionshar777.

But the new CA law has not yet been tested in federal court.

I must confess that I am not at all clear what scorpionshar777 is trying to accomplish. The information that scorpionshar777 has provided is interesting. Does scorpionshar777 want us to take sides? Does scorpionshar777 want to convince us one way or the other? If so, to what purpose? Whether mystery shoppers in California or elsewhere will ultimately be found to be employees or independent contractors will be determined by the IRS and/or court cases. Maybe scorpionshar777 wants us to lobby our legislators? I really don't understand what scorpionshar777 is trying to accomplish.

Hi Walesmaven!

What do you mean tested in Federal Court? Please explain what you mean to ask.

So here is some info I want to share with you right now. Supreme Court Ruling. The Supreme Court is the HIGHEST court which is FEDERAL.

Supreme Court Website is .supremecourt.gov
[www.supremecourt.gov]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:11AM by scorpionshar777.

Myst4au:

I just want you all to know about it and try to understand it. Mainly, because I heard a lot of you making statements of what YOU think is correct but it's not based on that. I learned about it from you but I was off this weekend and I finally had a chance to look up the info. I know that much of it means nothing to many of you and majority of you could care less.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:17AM by scorpionshar777.

Myst4au!

We're just chatting about it. Why are you getting so upset? I'm just trying to show you what the law states and where to find the info. I'm sorry if you take it super personal. It's not intended to upset you or anyone. Yes Plumbers are licensed and under the new rule they are the TRUE Independent Contractor. Electricians they have a license and they are a True Independent Contractor in California. I don't think the Strippers are but we would have to look it up but technically the business or strip club would be selling LIQUOR right? or Soda? Juice? Water? The Dancers are Entertainers so it's possible that they could be TRUE Independent Contractors especially if they have a fan base. So yeah they would have to show up with the hiring business requires them to but they have more freedom they could pick their outfits, songs, put together a show and they are more independent than we are as Mystery Shoppers. Technically and according to the legalities. Musicians, Artists, Singers, Writers, well we might have to learn more about that I'm not really sure. . BUT I think that it's fun to learn about things but hey. I think we'll stop on that note. It's been fun to chat about it at least. LOL. I think it's great to have an opinion or at least take a look at information. At least we're
informed a little bit.


Cheers!!!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2019 09:10PM by scorpionshar777.

No you just think it is fun to stir up things without actually educating anyone. The truckers' case has nothing to do with the MS situation, my friend. PHD in Labor Econ and Industrial Relations here and I DO keep up on rules and regs.

What you do is called spamming.

I am out of here.

Trust me, if I can understand Quantum Electronics, I can understand you. If you want to provide references for me and others to read if we want to, fine. You apparently have a lot of time and energy for this. But apparently, you do not understand that despite all of the cases you cited, we remain contractors until the IRS or a State or Federal court says otherwise. Even if the California laws are passed, or the California investigation of mystery shopping companies finds that California shoppers are employees and not contractors, it will only apply in California and is likely to be challenged in the California state court system, and if there is a point to be argued under Federal law, it will enter the Federal court system, probably in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (which is seated in San Francisco).

If there is something you actually want us to do other than reading all the references you provided, I fail to understand what it is. What are you proposing that is actionable by me or others on this Forum as individuals? Knowledge is always great, but knowledge without purpose is just for fun unless you are a Ken Jennings or James Holzhauer wanna-be. I do not aspire to be either of them, but I do collect information, and I have fun. Are you having fun?

walesmaven
There is not case on mysteryshoppers so that's why I didn't cite it. Also the supporting case that changed it all was the one I posted. If not I wouldn't have even mentioned it. That was case that created all of this hoopla.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:15AM by scorpionshar777.

myst4au
WOW. LOL. I don't want you or anyone to do anything. You all brought it up. I didn't understand what you meant or what you were speaking about in regards to ACL so naturally, I looked it up and I posted it so that other people who were like me could understand what YOU mostly were talking about. It's always great to learn about things and to know about it.
But no worries. I just deleted it all. If you want to learn about it. Look it up yourself. I will no longer waste my time talking or posting. LOL
Cheers!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 12:20AM by scorpionshar777.

It is like it doesn't matter! If you want to do mystery shopping for the legitimate MSC's and you do the work, YOU are an IC. You are not an employee! You do not get the choice of being an employee or an IC. If and when any of these bills, or statures or whatever and passed into law this debate might have relevance, but now if you co mystery shops, you are an Independent Contractor.

There are many companies in the US who insisted that they were hiring Independent Contractors, and the independent contractors thought that was what they were. Then (usually) a state labor board investigated and determined that everyone was really an employee, and entitled to back pay, back benefits, 401K contributions, etc. As many of have pointed out, this is not an easy issue. So, at some point in the future, your status could change retroactively. The mystery shopping companies have lobbied and done their best to keep "us" as contractors. Why? Money. They make more money this way. In Nevada, mystery shoppers are employees because of the law in Nevada. At the moment, there is a lot of effort (legislative and by agencies) in California to look carefully at who is and who isn't a contractor. I am sure that there are class action attorneys who will rush to find some of us in other states if California finds that mystery shoppers are employees and if the rationale can be extended to other states. Time will tell.

BTW, I retired from Fortune 100 "Company A". A year later (the wait required by pension law), I was hired as a contractor, except that I was actually an employee of Company B so as to insulate Company A from any charges that I was an employee rather than a contractor of Company A. I had colleagues from countries in Europe and Asia and they were definitely contractors because labor case law in other countries is different and does not bring the risk of a contractor later being deemed an employee as in the US.

@barbage wrote:

It is like it doesn't matter! If you want to do mystery shopping for the legitimate MSC's and you do the work, YOU are an IC. You are not an employee! You do not get the choice of being an employee or an IC. If and when any of these bills, or statures or whatever and passed into law this debate might have relevance, but now if you co mystery shops, you are an Independent Contractor.