If one has a camera that has been loaned to do video shops for a company, is it ethical to do video shops for other companies with the camera while it's in your possession?

My first thought is that, no, it shouldn't be done. My second thought is that I'm paying $45 in the form of reduced fees to rent that camera and I should be able to do what I want with it while it's in my possession.

I agree with your second thought, if you rented the camera, its yours to use..

No. It's not ethical. I wouldn't do it. Now, the rental thing is for legal and fiscal reasons mainly. But... you could ask the MSC and they might say go ahead... Who knows?

Not straight up ethical. They rented you the camera to do their shops. On the other hand, I can see the second point of view but I don't totally agree with it.

I don't agree with the second point either...

They did rent you THEIR equipment to do THEIR shop. I's sure they did not buy it with you or anyone doing a competitor's job with it.

Let me put it this way. You can only do agreed upon actions with a rented camera. Say, you rent a car with Hertz in Southern California. You agree to use it in the US and Canada. Even though you paid for the rental, you can not drive it to Mexico. Also, you agreed to use it in the streets. You could not use it off-road or at a racing track, right?

Here is something else to think about and I do not know the answer. In addition to the SD card, is there any storage on the camera itself. In other words is there some way the company who loaned you the camera could retrieve those videos of shops for other companies? Can you imagine accidentally giving an MSC such proprietary info from another company and the ensuing problems?

Your best bet is to simply ask the MSCs involved.

I bet you're right , Lisa...there's going to be a footprint in that camera for sure!! I wouldn't do it. NO way.



Now, that I've read the post below..interesting!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2014 03:53PM by Canuck.

Third perspective....

Many of the big Video MSCs have agreed with one another to permit cross-use of loaned/rented cameras in order to better support Road Warriors doing shops for many companies on the same route. You may find, if you ask, that the MSC that sent you the cam is a party to such an agreement. There is a long history behind those agreements, stemming from a major misunderstanding about using upload protocols and cameras, many years ago (I still have a few burn scars from that kerfuffel!), which led the MSCs to re-examine the degree to which they were willing to help shoppers so that the video industry could more easily grow.

So, by all means, ask; but do it in writing and get a written reply. BTW, I do not think that EPMS is a party to those friendly agreements. Their video staff is very friendly, but their company policy is not to join VSN or support its activities, from what I have been told.

I agree. Can't hurt to ask the MSC who loaned you the equipment. I know firsthand that two of the biggies are OK with doing it as long as you let them know.

Thanks for expanding on that. I was thinking of several companies who would be inclined to allow that kind of cooperation and two who might not. Ellis was one of the two.

Another question. Should permission come from both companies or just the one owning the camera?

I think you really owe it to the host company to practice with their equipment before going hot. As long as you are not abusing the equipment, you don't take time and effort away from the host, and delete your practice runs before you return the camera, you are at worst guilty of trying too hard.

Thanks for the replies. This was just a rhetorical question that popped into my brain when I was packing up the camera I've been using to be returned. Hopefully the next video shops I do will be with my own camera

I really couldn't come up with a good answer in my brain, which is why I posed the question here. One thing I thought about was wear and tear on the camera. What happens if you accidently break it while doing the other shop? As for the thought of them lending it for a particular use, I see that as no different than an MSC paying mileage for a shop and you stopping along the way and doing other shops. I know we all have done that, at least I have, and don't think anything about it.

To me it is not like mileage reimbursements. For one thing I am actually careful to be sure any extra shop does not add any extra miles and if it does those miles are not included when I invoice the other company. After that it is just my time which they have no control over. Maybe it is my pessimism, but to me every time a piece of equipment is turned on it takes it one step closer to the end of it's useful life.

Company B is benefitting from Company A paying you mileage because without that mileage you would probably not be in the area to do Company B's shop. From that standpoint, it's the same as Company B shouldn't benefit from Company A lending you a camera, which was one of the arguments stated by Cabazan.

That was my thought -- you're adding a few more hours of use to that camera without permission. So get the permission. I may soon be doing my first video shop with borrowed equipment and I was going to ask if it would be all right if I used it for a local fast food shop or bank shop to practice before doing the real shop. If they say no, then I guess I'll practice by having a conversation with my horse. (I'm not being funny -- horses' eyes are about the same height as a human's when they're just standing around in their stalls looking around and not agitated by something far away that would make them raise their heads higher.)

@bgriffin - Good point!

I think the consensus is to just ask, regardless of ethics, which is probably the best route, and what I would do if the situation actually came up.

@ dspeakes, I've now done 5 video shops with borrowed equipment, all from the same MSC. They actually encourage you to test and practice with the camera before using it, especially if you're a new video shopper. Both times my camera was sent to me 3-4 days before the scheduled shop date.

To me mileage and equipment are apples and oranges. I have never had a company paying me mileage also request my time be exclusive to their shops. I did have one paying all the expenses make that request. It was reasonable because they had already requested a six day extension and the trip was going to be tight.

I have also seen where companies expect the shopper to complete some practice videos with the loaned equipment. If the practice is just for you it won't matter if you are on a shop or talking to your horse. If the company wants you to upload the practice video, don't do it on a real shop for another MSC.

Dspeakes - PLEASE practice with your horse and then post it on Youtube with a link here. I definitely want to see that!

Yes, practice with the loaned equipment, of course. But those practice videos better not be product owned by another MSC than the one that lent the cam, without permission of the lender. I think that the OP was more about doing video shops for more than one video MSC with a set up loaned by just one of them.


When I do a video route with travel bonuses negotiated with more than one MSC, I let each scheduler know that they are going to have to trust me to apportion the trip costs in a fair manner. This is quite common for video routes. Road Warriors really have to earn the trust before they can do this with all parties feeling comfortable with it. As is often mentioned, relationships between shoppers and video schedulers are a very, very different kettle of fish from those in traditional (written only) shops.

I think this is a little ridiculous. I've been told point blank that the big 8 video shopping companies are happy to let you use equipment for other shops. Particuarlly in areas like mine where there are not that many video shops or shoppers and they cannot expect us to buy equipment because it's not worth it. One of my first practice sessions was done during a shop that wasn't for the same company or even a video shopping company. I just took it home and used it to fill out the report. That way I knew how the camra would be have in a real shopping situation. Then I deleted it. There is no watermark or memory of previously recorded video. That's not how cameras work. It's not like search history on a web browser. Well, actually it is. If you delete that history it's gone. I mean there's a small small posibility that they can do data recovery on a camera and get something that wasn't deleted properly but data recovery is very expensive and they would have no reason to do it.

Also, on the mileage thing. If company A gives me a bonus to do a shop in a small town and Company B gives me one too then I'm taking it. Half the time the bonuses are not worth it. Think about it. Let's say the town is 1.5 hours away and 82 miles. The shop pays $20 and will take 30 minutes to do and 30 to enter. You're getting paid a 40$ bonus. So your total for 2.5 hours is 60 bucks. Then subtract mileage. At the going mileage rate of $0.56 your total mileage is $45.92. So, after you subtract that you are left with $14.08 for 2.5 hours. That's insane. If I can three companies to give me bonuses of $20 on $20 shops all the way to the town I'm traveling and each shop is only an hour of time for shopping and reporting then I would make $134.08. Divide that by the 5.5 hours I worked and drove and I make about $24 an hour. That seems reasonable to me because I still have to pay taxes on it. Are you guys really saying you will only take a mileage bonus for one company on a route? What's the point of route shopping then. They never give big enough bonuses to pay for gas and time.

Gonzo,
A bonus is different than a travel allowance in my book. I'm talking about multi-day routes requiring overnight stays, hundreds of miles, meals and possibly very high road and bridge tolls.

Right, and I was talking about companies that pay mileage specifically.

I know that a standard digital also has ways to tell how many shutter releases have been actuated on the camera. When the camera is returned to it's actual owner (the company), they can probably tell if it has been used for more than one shop. I would shoot an e-mail to the company and pose the question. If they say it's ok, then you are covered. If they say no-then assure them that you will abide by their wishes. Since they own the equipment, they have the final say.

What is travel allowance? Also, I didn't know there were companies who pay mileage? Which companies do this? It's not a big deal if you tell me because I'm happy with the companis that I work for and I doubt they run through where I live. We seem to get less pay here.

You probably already work for some of the companies. Occasionally companies will offer travel or mileage, most often we negotiate for the expenses.

It still seems like it's better to get bonuses and do a bunch of shops in the same area. Also, I doubt I work for them as I barely do shops anymore unless they are for this one company or are video shops. I'm more into merchandising now.