Hi,

I'm new here and just getting started with MS and have completed just a handfull of shops for MarketForce, Maritz, and I could not get to BestMark soon enough for the badly needed oil change.

I have signed up with close to 40 shops this week and read the stickies from Flash and have had no trouble writing a narative and taking the quiz and have been accepted by some of the companies that do the upscale dining. Even though I am not being offered a camera shop, I would like to record it so I can enjoy my time out without any of the worries of forgetting details and writing a perfect report while I review the shop footage on one monitor and write reviews on the other one. Exact times, quotes and descriptions will be so simple.


I am active in the Drone/RC community and I'd like to point out that they are on the cutting edge of weight, size and price point when it comes to hidden/small cameras and they test literally every unit that is made, as they are always trying to shave an ounce off the weight and have the very best quality ccd camera.

When I read the post about the cost and capabilities of the PV-500 unit, I just laughed. The technology has passed that unit up to the point that I'd look at it as carrying around a brick in your pocket.

There is a very popular camera with microphone that is used by the RC plane/Drone hobbyists that now has a model up to a full 1080p resolution with a full 60 Frames Per Second and h.264 file encoding (makes the files smaller than mpeg2) on the fly with in video date and time stamping. It is sold as a "fake key fob" hidden camera and the best model can be purchased for under just under $100. You then add your own MicroSD card (Minimum class 4 up to 32 G to it for a full day of recording if needed.

It is so small that the built in battery will last not quite an hour as sold, so you would need to add a lithium ion battery pack to the micro usb port to extend its battery life as needed. If you place a 32 GB MicroSD card in it, as well as an extremly thin (think tablet battery) 5 volt lithium ion battery pack, you can get more than a full day of timestamed nonstop recording out of it.

These cameras are class of devices known as the "DVR 808 mini FOB spy camera" and there are over 20 versions of this unit made over the years. The oldest first generation ones that only record NTSC standard definition video sell for less than $15 shipped. The one that is considered the absolute best is the Model #26 or the wide angle lens Mobius model for under $100. You can get an extension camera cable for the unit and hide the fob and additional battery in a small inside pocket or even tape it.

Here is the RC hobby community thread with FAQ that is over 1,100 posts long that explains all the software and firmware versions that can be programmed into the model #16 (720p). This was the first HD version and is the most modified and has been around since 2011.

[www.rcgroups.com]

A hobbyist even made a website to keep up with all the different models, camera types, and lenses that can be adapted to this little camera. Without picking up a soldering iron, you can extend the pinhole CCD camera into any hiding place with an extension cable from the key fob as the camera itself is literally about 1 cm square. He has more detailed information and an updated list of Ebay re-sellers as well as the manufacturer's direct from china seller links here:

[www.chucklohr.com]

If your up against a company that is VERY sensetive about being photographed that has a strict no cell phone rule, (I.E. adult entertainment/strip club) they will catch you no matter how well you hide a pinhole CCD camera by using an anti camera IR detector that will make the light from the pinhole CCD literally glow at them when when they scan the room with a CCD camera turned on. It does not matter if it's hidden in a cap, tie, shirt button, or a $300 pair of designer glasses with the camera molded in them.

Here is an example of what your up against. If in a really dark room such as a theatre with a dark movie scene, a slightly more expensive second generation night vision monicle will make someone recording the film look like they have a flashlight pointed at the screen.

Example: $38
[www.dx.com]

I am a self admitted technophile, if you have not figured that out by now.

I am in the CFL market and I'm assuming that all of the good shops for my area will be taken by traveling shoppers with the MSPA Shopper Fest coming up in October.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2014 04:21AM by scanman1.

Scanman, that was an interesting read. Unfortunately, while you may "laugh" at the PV-500, it is the "industry standard" and, until that standard changes, the PV-500 will be the way to go for video shops.

If memory serves, you are also in a two party state. Regardless of what the cutting edge might be, our cameras are chosen because of how well they work for actual video shops. Believe it or not, a higher resolution is not always needed or even wanted. Few if any of us have shops in places using any type of detection equipment. The key fob cameras would not be able to capture our targets in the way a body mounted camera can. In other words, if you want to invest in that technology for your own use it is your choice. If you want to possibly add actual video shops to your repertoire it may be more cost effective to purchase one camera.

The fact that I live in a two party state is exactly the reason I think it would be a waste of money for me to invest in the industry standard unit, as any work product I create with my camera does not technically even exist. It would be for my eyes only.

The unit I've decided to get is the 720p model #16: ($40)

[www.ebay.com]

The external battery pack to extend record time by 200 minutes: ($17)
[www.ebay.com]

An 8 inch camera lens extension cable to make hiding the camera on body as standard unit: ($6)
[www.ebay.com]

I already have a 32 GB MicroSD card. So my total cost out the door is only $63. This is not a bad investment compared to a $600+ investment for something that is much bulkier. I'd like to see the two side by side in a test. The spec's of this system are superior to the old camera in every way.

Standards are only meant to be inproved on. As this newer gear works its way down the food chain, eventually the standards will get smaller. You can produce better results with a camera that costs 10% of what the old one cost. Like all technology in this field, it depreciates at about 50% per year.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 07:30PM by scanman1.

Please go to the New Mystery Shoppers section of the forums and read up on the legal aspects of recording shops in the second thread in that area.

Most of the video MSCs do not want to handle ultra high quality video product due to editing and size constraints. If you want to work for them, you will want their preferred equipment. For more details, take a look at the Video Shopping Network
[www.videoshoppingnetwork.org]

The preferred provider is Cody Woods at Lawmate America. If you are a member of IMSC, you will get a big discount.
The best bet for most video MSs is the PV-500 with the upgraded camera, as described over at VSN in a recent update to the list of acceptable equioment.

Thanks for the info. I have wanted to start in video shops for some time, and the information is helpful in making a decision.

There are video shops in Florida. Video shopping is legal in a two party state as long as the target has agreed, in writing, to be recorded. What you won't be able to record is a competitor shop for obvious reasons.

And you are not the first poster to suggest our equipment is outdated lately. That is really irrelevant at this point. In order to get the much higher compensation for video shops, our equipment needs to meet current standards, not some perceived standards of the future. In all likelihood standards will change. After all, it was only a relatively short time ago when the Archos was considered the best for our work. Meanwhile, an ambitious video shopper has plenty of time to see a large return on their investment.

How do you manage to only record the employees that have signed a waiver and not record others that are there that have not signed a waiver?

If I inadvertantly record the conversation of the party on the other side of the booth, I would then be in violation of the two party concent law.

This is not really a grey area if you read FL. Stat. ch. 934.03

Florida makes it a crime to intercept or record a "wire, oral, or electronic communication" in Florida, unless all parties to the communication consent.

Other guests at the same establishment must also concent to be recorded. They are not immune to this law because they are not employees.

As a side note, there is an option on this camera to record at NTSC resolution if that is what is desired.
Transcoding the video to whatever format the shopping company desires is also trivial if you know anything about video editing.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2014 08:02PM by scanman1.

When you apply to do your first video shop you will be asked what camera you have. You will be required to upload test video. When you reply that what you have is better you will not get the shop. Video companies do not have time to argue with you about how much better your equipment is than what they ask for. They'd rather spend that time giving work to shoppers who give them what they want.

scanman,
The FL statute regrding "intercepts" deals with phone taps. not with recording a conversation.

The client company in a 2 party state has all employees sign a waiver permitting audio recording. For obvious reasons, you cannot then do an audio recording of a competitor of that cleint in a 2 party state.

Again, to answer your questions about the legal issues, please go to the second thread in the new mystery shoppers area of these forums.

BTW, the cameras that you cite above would not be suitable at all for most covert video shops.

An interesting thread. Scanman1, thank you for contributing.

Scanman, I did some covert video work for a local lawyer using my PV-500 with high definition camera. The case went to trial and I had to testify that I made the recording in question. The video was shown, in court, on a 50" LCD TV and was perfectly clear.

BillBryan,
Why not just mosey over to
[www.videoshoppingnetwork.org]
and read ALL of the thread on minimum specs for the video MSCs there?

Early in that thread (be sure to start on page 1, lol) you will find the tech specs. Later, you will find the latest info on the currently recommended rigs, from the video MSCs. Quite simple.

After walesmaven posted that the prefered company is Lawmate America, I went to thier website.

The link from the main site to the body worn DVR is the PV-500L2. Here is the link to the product page:

[www.lawmate.com]

This links to two camera styles:

[www.lawmate.com] (Click on the spec sheet for the BU-18)

The Quick Start guide as well as the Spec. Sheet links are broken links that I assume were used by the web developer and he never changed them to the live site location when he uploaded the site to the production server. I assume the testing of the website was done while the test server was still active so it appeared that all was correct when testing. I run webservers as well as vBulletin message forums and know how easy it is to copy links from the test site to the production site.

I'm sure that Cody Woods will read this thread, so I'll just post the corrections he needs to make to his website here.

***************************************************************
Camera bu-18 hidden button NTSC camera product page:
[www.lawmate.com] (Click on the spec sheet for the BU-18)

Broken Links on page:
[193.35.59.59]
[193.35.59.59]
[193.35.59.59] (BU-18 Spec Sheet & Quickstart Guide both point to the broken link for the 500EV02.pdf)

Unpublished Correct Link on Lawmate's server to guides:
[www.lawmate.com] (BU-18 Spec Sheet)
[www.lawmate.com] (BU-18 Quick Start Guide)
[www.lawmate.com] (Proper link to PVR Spec sheet)
***************************************************************
My Opinion:
It is a standard 550 line NTSC camera with 0.2 Lux level CCD sensor (Quite good in the dark).
I was surprised to learn that the lens angle of view was only 78 degrees. A higher AOV of perhaps 95-110 would give a slight fishbowl distortion to the video, but the trade off would be to capture much more of the surrounding area that could be just out of frame with this lens. With a hidden camera, you can't always place your button by twisting your chest squarely in front of the action your trying to capture in the frame.
***************************************************************
Next up was the NT-18 neck tie camera page:
[www.lawmate.com]

Broken Links on page:
[193.35.59.59] (NT-18 Spec Sheet)

Unpublished Correct Link on Lawmate's server to guides:
[www.lawmate.com] (NT-18 Spec Sheet)
***************************************************************
Only after navigating the site from another product did I get to the new body worn PVR link:
[www.lawmate.com]

This is a full 1080p PVR with the same exact storage media capacity (32 GB MiniSD card) as the best unit I posted above.

Broken Links on Page:
[193.35.59.59] (Quick Start Guide)
[193.35.59.59] (PV-500EVO2 Spec Sheet)

Unpublished Correct Link on Lawmate's server to guides:
[www.lawmate.com] (Quick Start Guide)
[www.lawmate.com] (PV-500EVO2 Spec Sheet)
***************************************************************
My opinion:
The new PVR still records mpeg2 format instead of the much improved higher compressed h.264 standard, yet it does allow user selection of lower resolutions such as 720p and SD video and offers three bitrates to keep file size down. (5, 3.3, or 2 Mbps). It's ability to lower frame rates can lower file size. The files generated with the loss of bitrate and framerate will still create file sizes that are larger than running higher bitrate video and higher resolutions and compressing to h.264 video instead.
***************************************************************
The NEW 1080p CMOS HD Camera for the PV-500-EVO2:
[www.lawmate.com]

No broken links on this page
***************************************************************
My opinion:
This is a very good camera, being CMOS instead of CCD. It is superior to the FOB cameras in low light.

The Chinese produce everything and shamelessly copy all the items that they are contracted to build. They already have a unit that has the same CMOS camera and the same features as the EVO2:
***************************************************************
[www.ebay.com]

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2014 03:33AM by scanman1.

That fishbowl type of look can get a shop thrown out. Clients aren't looking for wide angle shots. The goal is to keep the target on camera and centered as much as is humanly possible. And you would be amazed how we can move, bend and contort to accomplish just that. I have had targets sit down next to me on sofas, offer me chairs that made me look like a 5 year old at the adult table and who are the ultimate close talkers.

In general I think when most of us talk about PV-500 it is somewhat generic. We don't always include ECO, EVO, Lite, etc., unless asking a question or making a comment about a specific model. It all boils down to a difference between what you may feel is the best versus what our clients want/need.

Scanman, you seem to be quite tech savy so I'm sure you'll understand this comparison. In the 70's and 80's there was a saying that nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Sure there were superior products out there, or at least the same product at cheaper rates, but the IT industry was so infantile at the time people wanted a trusted brand. Same kind of thing here. Video MSC's know what they're getting with the PV-500 and that's the camera they prefer that you use. Specs are really not relevant, even though I understand that's hard to comprehend. Think of the MSC's as clients who are buying IT services in 1980. If your IT service company doesn't run on IBM, they're kind of scared, and they don't want you to sell them on how the computers you use are just as good or better than IBM, they want to hire a company that uses IBM because they know and understand that the product will be what they want.

IT is still the same today...

Yeah, but today they realize that people besides IBM make good products too. But yes, can't get away with buying a no name brand.

Look where IBM is today. The IBM mainframe business is gone and they sold out the x86 PC division to Levono. They sold thier chip fabrication unit Customer Care Business to SYNNEX. They are a shell of thier previous self. Innovate or die. Microsoft is becoming irrelevant in the consumer marketplace. They are next to slide down from the number one position.

I think someone here besides me is watching too many epesodes of AMC's "Halt and Catch Fire"

I have been a tech/computer junkie since before the IBM PC Jr came out. I was active on the Commodore 64, Apple II, Amiga 1000, and even had a Tandy TRS-80 model 1 back in the very beginning of this whole personal computer evolution.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2014 01:04AM by scanman1.

I started out with a TI-99 4a. And then I worked for IBM for 10 years. But yeah. You still miss my point. The video shopping world isn't where IT is now, it's where IT was in the late 70's and early 80's.

I had a tandy. Still the best.

I applied for forum access over at videoshopingnetwork.com (forum)

It's pointless to continue discussing this here. I need to see what is really going on with video shopping.

I already know how to transcode, slice, dice and clean up video. I've been on doom9.org and avsforum.com HTPC forums for ages.

Why is it pointless to discuss it with video shoppers here and won't be to discuss it with video shoppers there? You do realize we are all registered on that forum as well? My guess is you will not find any current video shopper who has been doing it as long as walesmaven and she has taught workshops on the subject at conferences.

I should have said that it would be best for me to read the forum there, before I ask more pointless questions here that have been asked and answered there.

That sorta came out in a negative way. I didnt mean it as such.

Yes it did, lol! You will find a lot of great info there. Like I said, if your interest right now is recording shops for your own benefit go with something cost effective. If you decide later to add video shopping you can make the decision then about the expense. There are also companies who will loan you cameras, a great option for someone who isn't sure they will even like the work.

btw,
IMSC has negotiated a deal with LawMate for an excellent price on all of their products for IMSC members. IMSC annual membership is $50 per year, which is about the same as the member discount on one of LawMate's less expensive products (The new, about to be released, pendant cam).

The discount for IMSC members brings the prices well below what was previously provided by buying through MCP, which got its units from LawMate.

For details and other member benefits, google IMSC.

Scanman,


You are going to find that video shopping isn't really about high quality resolution and all of the cutting edge technology that is available for purchase and use. The quality of video is judged on the target capture rate and how well the shopper followed instructions to allow the target to give an effective sales presentation. One of the first things you are told when you become a video shopper is to lower the resolution on your camera to a minimum requirement. Running at high resolution will quickly get you a dead battery mid-shop, or mid-route.

Your desire to argue that the companies that are leaders in their industry are behind the times and aren't giving their clients the best product for the client's needs is probably an early sign that you may not be successful in this line of work. We all question instructions pretty regularly for various reasons. Ultimately, we recognize that it is our responsibility to deliver a product that meets the MSC's requirements, not what we believe is a better product. If you follow your logic through, would you read the instructions for a written shop and decide that you should ask a different question because you think the client would find the answers to your question more relevant than the questions you were instructed to ask?

And, just as an FYI about Lawmate. I believe that mystery shopping is a smaller segment of Cody's business. He supplies law enforcement and private investigators all types of higher and lower resolution equipment. He is excellent to work with on equipment needs and they are constantly working on delivering equipment that keeps moving ahead on specialized undercover recording equipment. Their is a big difference between undercover equipment and some of the lightweight cutting edge equipment you mention.