Yep, the Trinity study 4% rule. I've been living it for almost 10 yrs now (but at less than 4%). There is also a thing called "sequence of return risk." That's the dilemma of early retirement with a year in the stock/bond markets like 2022 during your first five years. We live a frugal life, not a cheap life. I have no problem dining at nice places while on vacation. But I know how to cook good meals when I am at home. I have no problem buying a new, well equipped, truck or sports car. But I keep it until the wheels fall off and perform all the repairs myself. We invest in low cost mutual funds, don't have any debt and do not use a financial advisor. FIRE - financial independence retire early.

@Snuffycuts99 wrote:

The math is pretty simple. Using the 4% withdrawal rate, you have $80k a year or about $6500 per month to live off of with 2 million. Of course, depending on your age you may have additional income from social security or a pension to supplement that. To some people that may mean living like a fat cat. To others it may mean a frugal existence. It all depends on your spending habits and the cost of living area you live in.

The math is not incredulous. It's accurate and has been confirmed by the consulted expert and you doing the math 4 times. 4% times 2,000,000 is 80,000 per year or $6,666 per month. It's difficult to believe that anyone is living in their car in this town or any other town who has that income. I know rent is outrageous, but even if rent or mortgage is $4000 per month, that still leaves more than a couple of thousand left for other things. If you are living in a cheap rental and eating Mickey D's, that's a choice. Not necessarily a bad one either.

I chose early in life to sacrifice a few little things so that I would have more of what I want and have all my needs covered. For example, when I was in my early 20's I lived in my parents home and road a bicycle to work everyday for two years. I saved my money and road that same bicycle to Chevrolet and bought a car right off the showroom floor. A few years later, I had saved my money and an opportunity opened up and I bought my first home.

I paid my own college tuition. I didn't borrow a dime. No debt. I worked hard, saved my money, and lived within my means. Yet, I lived. I vacationed at least once a year, and every ten years or so would buy a new car. I am frugal. I don't have to have the latest new thing, but if I really really need that new thing, I buy it because I've saved by passing on a lot of other stuff. The two cars I have now are a Lexus and a Nissan. I bought both of them in 2013, which means I'm due for another car. But frugal me intends to get another 100,000 miles out of the Nissan that currently has 194,000. I am known to have a nice car, but also known to drive it until it can go no more.

So, in Southern California, I am saying it is very possible to live, and live comfortably if you play your cards right. I made 80,000 or less for a large part of my working life. During that time, I've gone on many vacations, concerts, restaurants, owned new "luxury" cars, bought and sold multiple properties in 3 different states, and currently have two properties including the one I live in. I rent the other one to a family member for the cost of expenses. Other than equity, no profit.

No, I don't have 2 mil CASH in the bank, and I currently don't make 80,000+, but things are orchestrated so that I don't need that income to live comfortably. I have one mortgage of $2000 including property tax. I am still going to buy a new car, go on vacation, dine out when I want, buy me a gadget every now and then. And, I don't work. I never had any intention in life to wait until I was 65 to not work either. By the way, I have tried to tithe most of my adult life too. Yet, I have more than enough. Also, I have been supplementing a family member's income by placing $400 a month in their account for the last 5 years. If I'm able to do all these things and not work, that's comfortably living to me. 2 mil in cash in the bank may not work for you, but it works for me because I am in a position, by design, to make it work.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2023 11:25PM by 1forum1.

Thanks for the new-to-me company.

@sandyf wrote:

I once did a parking shop at a boutique hotel. I only did it because it was bonuses which is rare in Los Angeles but the job only paid about $10. The hotel was over $500 per night. I asked the scheduler why they thought someone might do it for $10. There was nowhere to hang out while waiting the 75 min
He told me the parking company thought people staying at the hotel would take it. You were not allowed to park overnight for the job so I thought it would be worthless for people staying there. They would still have to pay the overnight rate.
Some of these clients have no idea. But yes, I agree with Daddy. Many retired folks have big pension and 403b accts to live on. In this city that will not get you thru life til you die and do not get soc sec and other retirement benefits.

Coyle Hospitality posts some shops that have you shop a hotel in places like Hong Kong, or London. Pay is like $60 or less, but some pay expenses for airfare, hotel, meals, transportation, etc, up to like $9000. I have no idea what it takes to get one of those shops or how long you've had to worked for them but they do have them.
I can tell you that you can fly Business Class round trip to London, stay in a suite, and eat Beef Wellington at every meal and not meet the $9000 limit

I believe the 4% rule for your money lasting if you have xxx millions or even hundreds of thousands is based on someone being a senior citizen. The assumption is that if you are already above 65 your life expectancy is lower due to age. I do not think the 4% rule works for someone who is now 30 years old with a life expectancy of maybe 45 to 50 more years and just got 2 mill awarded or given to them.
Even now I have read that some experts are not in agreement with the 4% rule.

Yes, the 4% rule is based on a traditional 30 year retirement estimate. For someone in their 30s contemplating retirement, they might need their money to last 60 years or more. 3% give or take should sustain that. I've read that 2% can sustain a perpetual retirement.

And then they will offer $20 for someone who has 2 to 5 million in assets to complete the shop.

There is a Porsche shop paying $60. They want to know what car you will drive there, what you do for a living, a picture showing what you will wear, your education level, etc. This is to test ride a 200k car. They are looking for the Porsche demographic.

There were Lamborghini shops paying $150 at one point. At least that's more of an incentive.

What fantasy land these people are living in is a mystery.

I could easily fit with the car, but I am not going to dress like I have that kind of money. I like my shorts and crocs. I would like to drive the Taycan and get a feel for it, but I never bothered on clicking what was needed. I knew it would be too much info/detail for not enough pay. I was doing Acura shops pre-pandemic for $100.

@Niner, btw...the company looking for multi-millions does NOT skimp on shopper payment.

The 4% rule comes from the Trinity study. The 4% is the first year withdrawal. You would add inflation on top of that for each subsequent year. To perform your own calculation, I suggest using a tool such as "FireCalc." That tool, and others like it, utilizes Monte Carlo simulation to determine the percentage confidence factor in achieving your retirement financial needs.

I know. It's math. Americans are bad at math. Americans would rather play the lottery. The lottery is a tax on people bad at math. But I digress...

You DO NOT need to be a senior citizen. I "retired" at 53 when my employer was planning for yet another layoff and implemented a severance plan for those who elected to take it. I did.

My pension starts at 60. It's average at around 2K. My 60/40 high deductible healthcare is now $900/mo. I'm planning on collecting SS at 70 (est. $3,875). In the meantime I live off of my savings under the 4% rule.

Bottom line is that it can be done if you are frugal and save during your working years.

Stop increasing your standard of living as your wage increases. Stop trying to live like the Jones' next door.
[www.barrons.com]

@sandyf wrote:

I believe the 4% rule for your money lasting if you have xxx millions or even hundreds of thousands is based on someone being a senior citizen. The assumption is that if you are already above 65 your life expectancy is lower due to age. I do not think the 4% rule works for someone who is now 30 years old with a life expectancy of maybe 45 to 50 more years and just got 2 mill awarded or given to them.
Even now I have read that some experts are not in agreement with the 4% rule.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2023 08:00PM by maverick1.

@hbbigdaddy wrote:

I could easily fit with the car, but I am not going to dress like I have that kind of money. I like my shorts and crocs. I would like to drive the Taycan and get a feel for it, but I never bothered on clicking what was needed. I knew it would be too much info/detail for not enough pay. I was doing Acura shops pre-pandemic for $100.

@Niner, btw...the company looking for multi-millions does NOT skimp on shopper payment.

People who "dress like they have that kind of money" usually have no money. Wealth whispers.

The Porsche dealer knows me anyway, so I would not be much of a mystery.

I would do it if they paid more.

How much is Curinos paying for the shop? I would be concerned about showing them financial information. I signed up for Curinos and there are no shops within 999 miles of NY.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2023 08:19PM by Niner.

Curinos shops come up all the time in short spurts. Many of them are online so you do not need to live near a branch. This one is very specific tho. Just wait and someday they will have one for you.

The Porsche shop I currently see is not Curinos. Somehow, the Porsche shop got entangled in this thread about an MSC looking for a high net worth (at least $2 million) individual. The Porsche shop pays all of $60. It does require that you arrive in a high-end car, that you are well dressed, and more.

I did not say Porsche was Curinos. It seemed to ke like another shop that was looking for a similar demographic that is not usually associated with mystery shoppers.

I never see (but I don't look) for Sassie notifications from Curinos. It usually comes in an email from Judy Inboden (independent scheduler) who is gathering interested people for whatever Curinos is looking for. Sometimes it's a bank account opening. Other times it's credit cards. They also have student loan refinancing shops. The student loan refinancing have certain required credit scores.

Just pay attention to emails coming from msscheduler@atlanticbb.net

@sestrahelena wrote:

Where's SteveSoCal when they need him? Remembering his story about the mystery shop of a private island vacation package. And many others.

I'm still around! I just don't have much time to peruse the forum these days. I was not a millionaire back when I rented a private island for the day. I was apparently just good at playing one...

Things have changed a lot for me in recent years, and I have a slightly different perspective on MSing these days. Short version: I stopped MSing the day everything shut down, and the pandemic created a massive shift in my career that changed my financial outlook (and available time). I then became a regular customer at many of the places I used to mystery shop.

@sandyf wrote:

I once did a parking shop at a boutique hotel...The hotel was over $500 per night. I asked the scheduler why they thought someone might do it for $10.

And this all kind of ties in with Sandy's question. I don't think people with a career that pays well shop for the fees. They shop for the experiences....and to not have to pay for said experiences, so this (and many of the other questions posed in this thread) is mainly about two resources: Time & Money.

While I don't think I would take a short-term parking assignment at a hotel I was paying for, I have taken those parking shops in the past to visit another shopper for a "free" lunch while they were shopping said hotel. I'm still willing to meet other shoppers for a free lunch, but may just pay for the parking on my own these days, since I now have the money, and no longer poses the resource of time.

If one is retired, they may have both of those resources available, and be a good fit for some mystery shops. As someone in the workforce who qualifies for certain luxury assignments, I have zero interest in taking any banking or financial shops where I would have to disclose personal information, have my credit score affected, or do any work that doesn't ofer an exchange of a relatively valuable product for my time.

I have recently started taking on MS assignments again, though. About one a month, when time allows. Some have offered me a product that's outside of current budget range. Others have just been a good deal for the time vs. money exchange, for a product that I was probably going to purchase anyway.

But old habits die hard! I took an assignment at a 5-star hotel last month that did not offer reimbursement for parking. Parked on the street in Bev Hills and made my partner walk (in high heels ) the restaurant with me. I don't think I would have taken the parking assignment, even if it lined up.

I have completed several assignments for both Curinos, AKA Informa, and the MSC posting Porsche jobs.

Curinos is top rated and a recipient of Shopper Bob's "Three Thumbs Up" award. I do not hesitate to scarf any work for which I am qualified, as their work:pay ratio is outstanding for the industry.

The Porsche MSC's starting pay is unacceptable to me, but that is not unusual in the business. When their needs go unmet, the pay escalates. If one has an aversion to narrative, though, their shops could present a problem.

Welcome back Steve, your thoughts are very well put. I am that shopper who likes the chase for free or discounted things. It has always been fun for me to legally save money and that did not change when I had enough money to pay but is probably the reason I now have enough money to pay for whatever I desire. That and the fact that I do not desire all the fluff that many people seem to think are needs, not wants. But also I will not do a shop that I feel is not worth the time put into it just as you say. And that covers about 95% of shops in this expensive place to live.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

@sestrahelena wrote:

Where's SteveSoCal when they need him? Remembering his story about the mystery shop of a private island vacation package. And many others.

I'm still around! I just don't have much time to peruse the forum these days. I was not a millionaire back when I rented a private island for the day. I was apparently just good at playing one...

@SteveSoCal wrote:

I don't think people with a career that pays well shop for the fees. They shop for the experiences....and to not have to pay for said experiences, so this (and many of the other questions posed in this thread) is mainly about two resources: Time & Money.

I'm probably a bit of an outlier, but I do it for both reasons: 1) given the IRS-allowed deductions, I can sometimes get a string of shops (or a decent one nearby) that yield a hefty after-tax wage rate that is acceptable for my time. My tax rate is such that it can actually turn an 'average' fee that has little taxable exposure into an acceptable pre-tax hourly rate if it's an easy, quick shop (lol - not a scheduler's definition of "quick and easy shop", but mine . For instance, a certain quick and easy gas station shop - if my total time driving out of my way and on-site is just 10-15 minutes and I can get a $10-$15 fee, that's $40-$60+/hr. The total mileage expense often offsets the net earnings to be very low taxable profit - but still provide $10-$15 cash flow). 2) For the 'experience' shops, it's not so much that I don't want to pay for them, but the pre-tax equivalent earnings I would need in order to have after-tax cash to pay for the occasional nice meal is worth my time. So if I had to spend 30 minutes (even 60 minutes) for report writing for a dinner that was reimbursed $60-$100, that means I would need after-tax earnings of about $120-$150/hr+. Factor in my tax rate, and I'd need to earn about $200+/hr pre-tax for 30-60 minutes to have after-tax cash to pay for that meal. Or for the famous TXRH shops - even at $0 fee, the report is reasonable to do. So a TXRH with $0 fee yields a zero tax liability. On the other hand, I would normally have to earn about $75-$80 pre-tax to have $45 after-tax...all for a report that might take 10-15 minutes of 'work time'. Which yields a generous pre-tax hourly rate.

Since I'm a hustler and have always enjoyed working to earn money to invest, it's primarily the after-tax equation that moves my needle.

The latest ridiculous shop was one where they were looking for someone with an Amex Black card for the centuriun lounge. You need about a million dollars of income per year to get the invite for thst card.

There were other lounges they were also looking to evaluate, but that one made me laugh.

@Niner wrote:

The latest ridiculous shop was one where they were looking for someone with an Amex Black card for the centuriun lounge.

Yeah, again...where's the advantage for the evaluator taking that assignment? They already have lounge access and are in the airport on their own. What's the price point to get a black card owner to write a MS report?

And @STL_shopper; Your hourly computation may be a bit of a mislead when you look at it piece-by-piece. You have commute time to/from each assignment, and the time it takes to set up all the assignments, organize them into your schedule, report on them and handle the bookkeeping, so it's not sustainable hour over hour. I can easily set up a dinner assignment that nets me $100+/hour, but there's a finite number drinks & dinners I can consume each week.

I would always tend to look at my monthly and annual numbers to see the true time vs. benefit that's sustainable. If you are putting 50 hours monthly into MSing and taking in over $1,000, then you have a sustainable rate of $20+/hour.

For me, when I was a full-time shopper, I could not keep up the high hourly rate, since I had to rely on available assignments, and travel longer distances to keep working each day. I find that the less I shop, by cherry-picking assignment, I create a much higher rate of return for my time. It's very achievable to put in 50 hours monthly and take home $1,000, but 50 hours weekly for a $1,000 return is much harder to accomplish.

And if you take the numbers Niner mentioned above ($1M annual income), and assume a prospective card holder might work 50 hours weekly to achieve that, that person is used to taking home a sustainable $400+/hour, annually.

So how do you set the fee for the assignment? If it pays $100, does it truly take less than 15 minutes of total time for the shopper? If not, they would potentially be losing money in taking the assignment. Their time is better spent tending to their existing full-time business.

The above is what the majority of schedulers and MSC owners do not understand.

RE:Centurion Black Card shop
There are shoppers in the forum who do this completely as a side gig for whatever reason. They may have enough money in their view but they enjoy some aspects of mystery shopping. And we all know from the many scheduler's posts that mystery shopping is so much fun. They may earn lots of money in whatever it is they do on a regular basis but some could come from investments or from annual bonuses or they could be a bored housewife or househusband married to the breadwinner in the family looking for something different in their life than another fancy lunch with friends or rounds of golf. Who knows. As for the black card I just looked it up and the entry fee for an extra guest is $39 so unless this shop pays a huge, huge amount it does sound ludicrous. I just read there are about 20,000 Black card members worldwide so this shop is looking for a hay colored needle in some haystack somewhere in the world.

TBH, I shop as a side gig. But yeah, not sure I want to give them all my financials.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2023 05:20PM by cherubino3.

I can testify to that. Both my father and my husband died shortly after retiring. For my dad it was a couple of years but he quickly started having cognitive difficulties to the point where life was no longer enjoyable for him or my mom. It was a chore taking care of him for the several years more he lived. My husband died suddenly with no prior illness after only three months of retirement. We had all sorts of plans for trips that never happened.
But having a financial cushion during those times and after is necessary to keep your sanity intact. So don't spend it all.

@hbbigdaddy wrote:

My biggest fear is the cost of health insurance outside of employer provided/subsidized. I told my wife she will continue to work for the health insurance benefits when I retire :-)

I have been frugal for just about everything in my life. I do not get a new phone every 2 years. I still have a samsung note 9 and an iphone 12. I don't plan on upgrading iphone until maybe 16 (at earliest)

My only splurge has been the model Y performance tesla after having a honda crv for 20 years and 250k miles.

I can't take my money to the grave. You also don't know which day will be your last. The American "mindset" (for a long time) has been work until 65 and retire. I worked with someone and there was a group layoff in 2021. about 100 of us got our IT jobs outsourced to India. He was 63. He ended up getting terminal brain cancer and did not make it to 65. So saving all your money for something that might never happen is NOT living life either.

You need to be able to spend (withing reason) and travel while your young because you don't know how long you have and your health will not be the same in your later years as it was in your early years.

@cherubino3 wrote:

TBH, I shop as a side gig. But yeah, not sure I want to give them all my financials.

I do the same and I could qualify but I'm thinking it probably doesn't pay well enough to justify the time and energy. And when I emailed them 401k/ IRA doesn't count.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

And @STL_shopper; Your hourly computation may be a bit of a mislead when you look at it piece-by-piece. You have commute time to/from each assignment, and the time it takes to set up all the assignments, organize them into your schedule, report on them and handle the bookkeeping, so it's not sustainable hour over hour. I can easily set up a dinner assignment that nets me $100+/hour, but there's a finite number drinks & dinners I can consume each week.

I certainly agree that it's not something that's repeatable on a long-term basis, and I realize I'm talking about very short/hyper-short timeframes (I might be getting $75/hr for a 10 minute stretch if it's just 1 shop...or perhaps $60/hr for 2-3 hours if there are multiple bonused shops near each other)....but it's how I evaluate and justify occasionally low-paying fees if the total time commitment is brief. When you approach finances in a certain way, it can have cumulative positive or negative effects. The similar train of thought in the negative sense would be someone who consistently says "oh, that 12oz can of soda from the vending machine costs $1, but it's just a buck - who cares? And that $5 I spent on the cup of coffee? Big deal. It won't bankrupt me". It's true that when isolated, that single instance won't make a hill of beans difference. But in aggregate, over time, with a consistent attitude and mindset, the "$75/hr for 15 minutes here....$63/hr for 10 minutes there....$55/hr for 3 hours there" start to add up in a far more substantial positive/negative way. (I'm not saying you were disagreeing with this - just that it's an elaboration on how I personally approach mystery shopping and other financial matters, given my net worth, and despite what could be lower/zero fees on some shops)

And there are a few minutes in setting up a route, etc. for sure...but that's typically when I see that there are several opportunities available and already know I'm doing several shops. So the hourly rate will come down a bit...but it's not as bad as getting it down to $10-$20/hr after taxes.

For low/$0 fee shops like dining shops, I would typically pick these up when I am looking to enjoy a dinner with my girlfriend or parents, or I happen to be going by there anyway - I'm not making a special trip all the way to the restaurant just for a mystery shop, since the drive time to/from would definitely factor in and kill the hourly rate equivalent.

Yes, there's some time for reading all the various emails that come in, but I have to do that anyway on a daily basis for all my e-mail. Since I can quickly see what shopping emails can be deleted without even reading them, I tend to not factor that in too heavily.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2023 07:06PM by STL_shopper.