Monday is Memorial Day. It is not a holiday like New Years Day or the 4th of July. It should be a day of remembrance. Most of us know someone who served and some of us are affected by someone who didn't make it back. Say a word of thanks for those now serving or who served in the past and say a prayer for them and those who gave their lives. And stand when the National Anthem is played. Be proud.

Kneeling during the national anthem is a protected First Amendment right which is not found offensive or an insult by many who serve or have served. Their feeling is they served to protect the Constitution as a whole, not cherry picked parts of the document.

We have a holiday for those that served (my wonderful Father was a Marine), which shows our respect on a whole.

It's not a matter of legality. It is a matter of respect. It is also a First Amendment right to burn the flag or use it as a doormat. Are you OK with that? We obviously travel in different circles as I have many friends, relatives and acquaintances that served and none of them feel the way you do. Out of curiosity, were you elected or self appointed as the spokesperson for "many who served"?

"Out of curiosity, were you elected or self appointed as the spokesperson for "many who served"?" Were you?

And yes, I am okay with people exercising their First Amendment rights. While some are making a big deal over black athletes kneeling, not a word is said about the fans in the stands who chit chat, sit, go to the restroom, get another beer, etc., etc. A better use of time is to address the underlying issues behind the protest rather than focus on the form of protest.

So I wish a Happy, Thanked, Respectful, and Respected Memorial Day to all who can understand this message.

(I would rather address those who served, directly. But they are gone now.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2018 05:53PM by Shop-et-al.

@LisaSTL wrote:

not a word is said about the fans in the stands who chit chat, sit, go to the restroom, get another beer, etc., etc. .

I fully agree with you. They should be standing with their hand over their heart or offering a military salute during the 2 minutes of the National Anthem.

We will be proudly displaying the American Flag in front of our house this weekend in honor of those who have served over the 220 year history of our nation.

As for kneeling during the National Anthem... I find the practice itself disheartening. However, I can find no blame for those who feel it to be a necessary expression of their feelings. They are exercising the same First Amendment Rights for which my father and grandfathers fought to protect. Were I in the NFL, at first, I would not have knelt. However, the moment a certain powerful elected official began to demand that the practice stop, I felt that our First Amendment Rights were being trampled by the government. Now, were I in the NFL, I would kneel as an act of defiance in defense of the very rights being threatened.

I do differentiate between NFL owners (men and women running businesses) expecting players to participate in the Anthem by standing and POTUS making a demand. The difference is that NFL owners are running a business and players are their employees. The Anthem is a part of the pageantry of the show. Whereas, when POTUS makes such a demand, he is undermining some of the very freedoms meant to protect us from tyranny and which were foundational to the formation of our nation. Moreover, his is meddling with the operation of private business - effectively adding his own regulations. Though I might disagree with the owners' decision to punish players (and teams) who kneel, I do not dispute their right to do so. I do dispute any interference in the matter by POTUS.

I'm not sure if President Trump's opinion had any influence on the owners, although he is entitled to his First Amendment rights just like any other citizen. In my opinion, the owners changed the rules for a much different reason - attendance and income is down. And you are correct, they are concerned about the bottom line. The National Anthem controversy is just one of the reasons for lower attendance and viewership. I don't think allowing players to remain in the locker room during the Anthem will change anything. Nor do I think a fine will have any effect. Personally, I will continue to watch and rout for the NY Giants but that is the only game I now watch. My interest in football has diminished.

They can have all the free speech they want so they can build their "brands" and get on ESPN - but they have NO right to do it while they are getting paid by their employer, wearing their employer's uniform, and standing in their workplace. The NFL - just as the NBA did - has every right to make them stand. Making political statements is not accepted in any workplace. The only reason NFL players get away with it is because its a racial issue and therefore they get special treatment. If players started kneeling to protest abortion or something along those lines, the media would crucify them and the league.

Welcome to 1968.

Got it. The players can become ICs. As ICs, they will not have employers who can dictate decorum, neutrality, or other conditions of the work/workplace. Just like us!

Wait.

As ICs, we have MSCs who can and do dictate conditions of our work/workplaces. We have instructions for how to dress, what to say, what not to say, what not to do, how to respond in assorted unexpected circumstances, and... get this... admonishments. If we do not comply with stated requirements, our reports will not be accepted and... get this... we will not be paid.

Not Be Paid??!?!?

Shall we now kneel during sports bar shops when the National Anthem is played, in protest of the above-mentioned, burdensome, enslaving, entrapping, and otherwise unacceptable yokes?

@LIJake wrote:

@LisaSTL wrote:

not a word is said about the fans in the stands who chit chat, sit, go to the restroom, get another beer, etc., etc. .

I fully agree with you. They should be standing with their hand over their heart or offering a military salute during the 2 minutes of the National Anthem.

Great question. Because my briefly mentioned The GoGo has not been marketed, humans might have to relieve themselves in restrooms, even during sporting events. But wow. We are punishing people for peeing? When did this become fashionable?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2018 06:00PM by Shop-et-al.

The thread started out as a wonderful suggestion until the last two sentences (that I agree with by the way). Every single member has a different opinion on every subject that is discussed, and the opinions are passionate as they should be. Voicing an opinion is great, but dictating an action to a large auditory audience will cause the wonderful suggestion to be forgotten. I hope all have a wonderful Memorial Day weekend.

A national anthem is defined as:

A national anthem is generally a patriotic musical composition that evokes and eulogizes the history, traditions, and struggles of its people, recognized either by a nation's government as the official national song, or by convention through use by the people.

Memorial Day is defined as:

a day on which those who died in active military service are remembered, traditionally observed on May 30 but now officially observed on the last Monday in May.

I'm not sure why these two things are grouped together in the original post. The national anthem is not a military song. In fact each branch has their own song. Likewise, I don't understand why kneeling for the national anthem is considered insulting to the military specifically. In my opinion it should be considered an insult to the entire government. It should be considered an insult to the every level of government from the President to Congress, state and local governments, and especially the police. The group of people who are kneeling in protest are doing so because all those people I just listed are doing them an injustice. Black males are incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer terms than white males who commit the same crimes. They are killed by police at a much higher rate. And I could go on and on. Yeah we're ok with paying them millions to be our entertainment in the form of sports and music but heaven forbid they get equality in any other form.

As for the NBA requiring it's players to stand for the anthem. They also allow their players to protest in other ways prior to games that the NFL does not. NBA players have protested for the same reasons as football players in many ways from writing messages on their shoes to entire teams wearing shirts with protest messages during warmups. The NFL does not allow any of those things. The NBA is VERY supportive of protests by black athletes (and white ones for that matter) and NBA head coaches have been very outspoken about the issue during interviews.

Personally, I stand for the national anthem. I do it because I do not have the visibility these athletes have so it would do no good. And I do it because I'm a (mostly) white male and I don't feel like I have the right to include myself in that particular struggle. But if I was a black athlete, I'd be right there with them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2018 09:09PM by bgriffin.

@LisaSTL wrote:

A better use of time is to address the underlying issues behind the protest rather than focus on the form of protest.

QFT

Seriously walesmaven lol? The victim card is for people who don't stay in school, don't live right and don't get a job. Its a cop-out, its so much easier to blame everyone else for your failure than to do what needs to be done to succeed. And liberals who never think anything through but rather emotionally respond with touchy-feely, knee-jerk, politically correct pom-pom waving pander to that destructive mentality. PRESIDENT Obama, SECRETARY OF STATE Rice and CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF Powell say hi!

You really do let that racist freak flag fly high.

It's not playing a card when you are victimized.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2018 10:23PM by LisaSTL.

How is that racist? You are the perfect example of a liberal. You just make emotionally-based general statements that show no insight or critical thinking. Liberals and the media - just regurgitating the same catch phrases and labels without thinking.
If you don't think the whole victim card excuse is nonsense, then explain to me about Vietnamese immigrants. They came here from a war torn country and have seamlessly adapted to American society while maintaining their cultural identity. No other relatively recent immigrants have done that. When Katrina wiped out their homes and the Gulf oil spill destroyed their livelihoods, did you hear them playing the victim card? Did the media cover Vietnamese displaced from Katrina or struggling to survive when oil killed all the shrimp? No! The media covered the people who would draw more sympathy and ratings and financial aid. Did athletes and movie stars rage about BP not delivering on the aid these people were supposed to receive? No! There's no big publicity in standing up for Asians. No votes either. The media treats Asian hardships as non-news and white hardships as something they must deserve.
Its mind-boggling how liberals lap up everything the media feeds them without ever actually putting things in perspective.

And it is funny being called a racist in a forum where posters talk about being scared to shop in certain neighborhoods (code for black or Hispanic). THAT is racist, LisaSTL. When people assume they are going to be robbed, raped, harassed or murdered because its not Wonder Bread Land - that is the definition of racism. But I've never heard you call them out on it...

It is nonsense. It is nothing more than yet another way to put down large groups of people still fighting for equality. It is always thrown out by people who seem to think anyone who is non-white or non-male should just STFU because all of their problems are because they are too lazy or too stupid or "don't do the right thing." All while ignoring the evidence to the contrary such as the statistics quoted by bgriffin and all the ongoing, systematic racism. It has only been a few weeks since the police were called on black men sitting in Starbuck's and Native American teens touring a university. But I'm sure none of them were victimized. They just were doing what they should not, sitting while black and visiting a college while red.

@roxy1
1. You are correct in one thing: People of color have made great strides towards equality in our society since the 1960's. However, having had an African American president does not mean that said equality has actually been achieved. Racism is real. Do you remember the marches in Charlottesville?

2. You are happy to fly off the handle about liberals having "knee-jerk" reactions. However, I would suggest that your post is quite an emotional reaction.

3. Racism is not specific to either political party. You have accused liberals. Okay... Now, look at the words coming out of the mouth come very prominent members of the right.

4. I work in a school with a large number of immigrants from many Asian countries. The adaptation into our society is far from seamless.

@roxy1 wrote:

PRESIDENT Obama, SECRETARY OF STATE Rice and CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF Powell say hi!

Statements like this are a result of a simplistic view of race and privilege. I have seen a couple of analogies that really impacted my view on those subjects.

The first was one a friend of mine came up with several years ago. He's a big gamer. And he thought about this one day playing games. Think of life as a video game. Straight, white males are playing on the easy level. Life is easier for them than any other group. Then you go down the line until you get to a gay minority female. They have the toughest path through life of anybody. It's like playing on the hardest level. Does that mean that a straight white male isn't good at life because he's playing on the easy level and can finish the whole game? No. It's possible he's good enough that he could finish the game on the hardest level, no one knows. But at the same time does that mean the black lesbian that gets killed on the second level is bad at life? Meh. She might could finish the entire game too on the easy level.

The one I liked better was one a professor used in a class. He put a garbage can at the front center of his classroom. He had everyone ball up a piece of paper and try to throw the paper into the can while still sitting at their seats. Anybody that made it got an A on their test. The guy sitting in front of the garbage can loved it. The ones in the back corner of the room did not. That's a pretty good analogy of life and privilege and racial bias. Sure, sometimes President Obama is sitting in the corner of the back row and happens to be really good at throwing paper balls into trash cans.

My point in this is not that everyone on the front row should move to the back row. It's not that people should feel guilty because they're on the front row and other people aren't. It's not even that maybe we should put everyone on the front row. As nice as that would be it's just not possible because there will always be people with less privilege than others.

Too often though we see ourselves hitting the basket from wherever our seat in the room is and we think we're better than the guy two rows back that hit the rim and bounced off. And we look at that guy in the back corner that couldn't even get close to the basket and judge him for not doing what we can do. Or worse, we judge him for not being President Obama that's sitting in the opposite corner.

NFL Players do have every "right" to kneel during the National Anthem. There is no law against doing so. The owners have every right, also, to terminate them if they have a policy that says that the players must stand. (With no policy or contractual provision in place, the owners have no recourse.) The reasons that NFL players can "get away with it" are many. First, the owners want to win football games. Cutting star players means that other teams can pick them up. Second, The nation is divided over the issues. If the owners take a firm stand in either direction, they risk losing a large percentage of their fan base - and that means profits plummet. Third, racism is this nation is real and there is zero doubt that African-American folks are often mistreated by police. In other words, the NFL players have sympathy for their cause.

Were I a team owner, I would not crack down on the players. I would ignore the protests and likely work with my television contracts to avoid having the kneeling televised at all. I would also push to have a statement made to POTUS to ask him to leave the NFL alone so that the owners could deal with a sensitive issue without him publicizing it so much.

@roxy1 wrote:

They can have all the free speech they want so they can build their "brands" and get on ESPN - but they have NO right to do it while they are getting paid by their employer, wearing their employer's uniform, and standing in their workplace. The NFL - just as the NBA did - has every right to make them stand. Making political statements is not accepted in any workplace. The only reason NFL players get away with it is because its a racial issue and therefore they get special treatment. If players started kneeling to protest abortion or something along those lines, the media would crucify them and the league.

Lisa, you are a phony. First you purport to speak for many veterans when in actuality you are merely expressing your opinion. And the First Amendment certainly entitles you to that right. But please don't try to come across as a spokesperson for Vets. Your retort to me when I asked if you were elected or self appointed was "were you?" Re-read what I said and you will see that I was referring to veterans that I know and not veterans as a group.

Now you say that native Americans were victimized because they are red. I don't know the full story behind this but it wasn't that long ago when you declared that the name "Washington Redskins" was derogatory and an insult to native Americans. When you mentioned red were you not referring to their skin color?

Hahahahaha. I give up. You must know and/or be related to way more veterans than me. We liberals avoid the military like the plague. (Let me point out that is sarcasm since all my other sarcasm was missed.)

Actually veterans have as many different views on this subject as most Americans. Some are offended. Some are not. Just a random article from a google search of how veterans feel about NFL protests. This was the only link I opened as it was from a newspaper that could hardly be considered leftist in general. I could have clicked on the thinkprogress link but obviously you would have dismissed it immediately.

[www.tennessean.com]

From this article it appears just as many or more are for or ok with the protest as are offended by it. In Lisa's defense, she specifically said there were many veterans that weren't offended. She did not say all by any means and I believe her statement is accurate.

Here is part of a relevant article from History.com:

History of Memorial Day

Memorial Day, as Decoration Day gradually came to be known, originally honored only those lost while fighting in the Civil War. But during World War I the United States found itself embroiled in another major conflict, and the holiday evolved to commemorate American military personnel who died in all wars.

For decades, Memorial Day continued to be observed on May 30, the date Logan had selected for the first Decoration Day. But in 1968 Congress passed the Uniform Monday Holiday Act, which established Memorial Day as the last Monday in May in order to create a three-day weekend for federal employees; the change went into effect in 1971. The same law also declared Memorial Day a federal holiday.


Memorial Day Traditions

Cities and towns across the United States host Memorial Day parades each year, often incorporating military personnel and members of veterans’ organizations. Some of the largest parades take place in Chicago, New York and Washington, D.C.
_________________
How does kneeling compare to recognition, appreciation, and honor?

I'm sorry bgriffin, amusing as they may be, I can't buy your white privilege analogies. I'm a first generation white son of two immigrants who legally migrated to this country for a chance at a better life. At age 4 my father and mother gave up their jobs as a handy man and a maid to move from the City to the suburbs for a safer life and better education. My father got a job as a mechanic and my mother felt she could do a better job of raising my brother and me than some nanny. We didn't know what white privilege was as we were poor and struggled. I got my first part time job as age 13 and worked all through high school and college. Still no white privilege.

Everything I got through life I earned. No silver spoon, no white privilege. I didn't have a seat in front of the trash can. It didn't matter that I am white of European heritage. I firmly believe I would have had the same struggles opportunities and success if I were black, Asian or native American.

And I am not unique. There are millions of people like me in this country.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2018 08:14PM by LIJake.

I think you're missing the meaning of white privilege. It doesn't mean white people start out rich and so are privileged. It also doesn't mean that white people didn't have to work hard to get where they are. It doesn't mean that things are given to white people. It doesn't mean that you didn't earn the things you've gotten. I think too many people that are offended by the notion of white privilege think it means they are somehow undeserving of what they have. They equate the concept with what they consider privileged people to be, in general incredibly wealthy people who inherit money they did not earn. That is not what white privilege is at all.

But let's look at your circumstance in particular.

For starters, your parents where white Europeans. It was much easier for them to legally immigrate to the US than it would be for black or brown immigrants. I'm not knocking their legal immigration. I love people who want to come to America in search of a better life. They're exactly the type of people we want here. But that does not change the fact that it was easier for them to immigrate. That doesn't mean easy. It doesn't mean they didn't work for it. It means it was easier. Like on a scale from 1-10 it was a 7 in difficulty for them where it would be a 10 for an African.

Even as an immigrant it was likely just as easy, or easier, for a white immigrant to get a job as it was for a black person who lived here. That doesn't mean it was easy finding a job. It just means it was easier. Racism is still a problem in this country.

When you got your first job at 13, do you think it was more, or less likely, for a 13 year old who was white to find a job than it was for a 13 year old black person? I'm going to guess it was much easier. I got my first part time job when I was 16. I walked in and was immediately hired. I was the only white person applying for jobs that day. I was a fantastic employee but I won't pretend I would have been hired immediately had I been black.

Now let's say there's a hypothetical Kenyan family who wanted to immigrate to the US at the same time. And let's say they had the same intelligence and worked just as hard. For starters immigration numbers would make it harder for them to come to the US. So that puts them, let's say 2 years behind (that's just a guess to illustrate my point). So now they're 2 years behind your family. Then because they're black and not white, it is likely the father would not find work as quickly, and if he did it is likely he would not be paid as much. Now you have a black family who is either poorer than yours or who's mother has to work as well. That robs the two brothers of as strong of an upbringing. Because let's face it, studies show over and over that a parent in the home does a better job of raising children. So now you have a family who is a few years behind yours and whos children are not going to have as strong of an upbringing. Sure, some kids who are in homes where both parents work grow up to be great kids. But a larger percentage of them do not. So now you have kids that might not have the work ethic installed in them to get a part time job at 13. It doesn't mean their parents are better or worse than yours, it means they weren't able to be around as much as yours were and instill the same values. And even if that 13 year old did want a job, he would have been less likely to find one as your were. So now, fast forward to 18 year old you and 18 year old hypothetical kid, which one is going further in life? One is an 18 year old white kid who has a good work ethic and was raised by a parent in the home. The other is an 18 year old black kid who was not raised by a parent in the home. That's a huge amount of difference simply because 1 family was white European and the other was African.