@Jack in CO wrote:

@jrossetti wrote:

@Jack in CO wrote:

@jrossetti wrote:

Yea, she'll screw over a shopper at any time she can make money. She created her own editing company. Convinced one of the company's she does edit work to drop the shop fee from $65 to $60 so that she can input the shop results. But with the new system from the MSC, the shopper takes more time with the report then before. So, she took ~$5/shop from shoppers right into her pocket.

|

To be fair, as a shopper, I advocated this to several companies, including Shadow Agency and a few others.
For a full time shopper they can make more money in less time with this method. Every minute I dont have
to do a report, I get to do more shops. (but I proposed it as the shopper having to do absolutely nothing in
terms of report except maybe a date and time and name)

Ive been paying out of pocket for a virtual aid for this same service and have been telling companies they
should offer this to shoppers. But again, this relies on not having to spend that time doing reports or clicking
through and checking boxes and crap.

================================================================================
What the Heck?!? You are advocating for MSC to lower fees to shoppers? Why the heck do that? It's hard enough to make a good income doing this work without a irresponsible shopper trying to decrease shopper fees for everyone else. We as shoppers should try and get HIGHER fees for each shop for doing this work from MSC not LESS. The constraint isn't video shop reports, those are just simple, a couple minute reports. They don't keep any good video shopper from maximizing time on the road. The only constraint is the hours the stores are open. I can do any of those reports in just a few minutes each after checking into the hotel at night or in the morning before leaving for the next day's shops. Those reports are NOT keeping me from maximizing my time in the stores.
PLEASE don't advocate for lower shop fees for me I'll happily do a video report for an extra $5/shop.

I would encourage you to take things in context. I pay a virtual aid well under 5 dollars a shop, and at the time it was about their longer apartment reports. if you had someone who would do 30 minutes of report for you for 2.50 would you pay that or would you work for $5 an hour? Because that's more in line with the proposal I was giving as I was attempting to have them utilize an overseas virtual aid, not a local company who would want american wages.

For $5 an hour I get someone doing 60 minutes of report time, and that provides me with 60 minutes of shopping time. I can do just about ANY mystery shop in that 60 minutes and make more than I'm paying the virtual aid.

What Shadow did is more akin to paying someone 30-40 bucks an hour for an hour of work and it's not even close to what I was proposing. I'm a shopper, why the heck would I propose something that would make me less money?

Again, I'm not cutting short my shop time to fill out reports and I doubt anyone else is. Stop trying to get lower fees per shop for shoppers.[/quote]

I'll agree to stop doing what im already not doing, if you agree to stop accusing me of doing what im not doing?


Take things in context, please.

When I have 20 shops to do in a day I have the option of doing the report immediately after leaving, or i can do the report when I get to the hotel that night and have a stack of 20 reports to do. Now I'm not sure what your memory is like, but if I have even 3 shops to do at once I dont recall the details for each question and have to get all of that information off of the video. Watching videos and doing reports at the same time is almost like doing the entire shop twice. That takes up a lot of time.

If you have to spend 7 minutes on a report if you do it right away, that same report may take me 15-20 minutes if I do it at night or a later date because I have to use the video. 7 minutes times 20 reports is 140 minutes. that's over two hours of reports being done after each shop, or 3 or 4 hours of reports later, or it can be outsourced for almost no time. It's simple math.


If I do it right away it's much faster as it's still fresh, it takes less time than doing it later, and it eats into time I could be moving to the next location. With that knowledge, I could also send the video and subjective info to my virtual aid which is where the idea came from. Pay us 2 or 3 bucks less for a 20-30 minute report assignment and use a virtual aid you have trained instead. That was my proposal. Cutting a shop with a report that would take you 20-30 minutes and reducing pay by 2 or 3 dollars.


Even if you aren't cutting short shop time, do you really mean to tell me its okay if you get paid $5 for an hour worth of reports? Because if this is the case, I have a lot of work I can give you and you wont even have to do any reports! I'll keep you busy all day every day for five bucks an hour. Thats how much I pay my Filipino aid who does some of my reports.

I do want to point out there are absolutely shoppers who have to do reports during hours that they could be shopping. Im not entirely sure why you think no one does reports that cut into shop time. It's practically a necessity if youre at a high volume of shops per day.

Most of the shoppers I know personally who make 4,5, 6 grand a month do a fair amount of reports during shopping hours because of the negative consequences of doing them later often outweigh losing a bit of time in between shops.


If you are willing to work for $5 an hour however then there is nothing I can say that will convince you of what I am trying to tell you because we simply do not place the same value on our time and that's okay too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2020 03:09AM by jrossetti.

What I find more incorrigible about the drop in fees story is encouraging yet another company to use overseas labor at slave wages. Like that hasn't been a major part of the problem in this country for way too long.

@jrossetti How long did the shop reports in question that went from $65 to $60 take you?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2020 03:23AM by Jack in CO.

@bgriffin wrote:

I got an editor note from an MSC (I honestly can't remember what company) from someone named Pam. For some reason something about it made me wonder if it was IMSC Pam.

I believe Pam’s new company is called IPOS....

I’ll get my coat.

Can't we go back to discussing PAM?

@LisaSTL wrote:

What I find more incorrigible about the drop in fees story is encouraging yet another company to use overseas labor at slave wages. Like that hasn't been a major part of the problem in this country for way too long.

Fair in many cases!


I'm not sure how that matters in THIS context unless you are okay being paid $5 for an hour of your time though, which is the only way it should matter. It frees up time for you to take an additional contract for another job in that time, making more money overall.

You guys keep getting fixated on what Shadow did, and not what I had been passing along as a business idea. I have nothing to do with shadow taking 5 dollars off what used to be a 3-4 minute report. Them taking shop pay down while simultaneously causing you to spend MORE time on reports has almost no resemblance to what I recommended NOR do i even know that my going around to a few companies even played a part in this change.

It's not like moving a scheduling team or call center overseas where youre actually taking a paying job at or above minimum wage overseas. MY suggestion was to take the least efficient and lowest paying aspect of a shop and oursource THAT so more actual work could be done.

$5 an hour in the Philippines is no where near slave labor. The new minimum wage starting sometime this year is 11 dollars for a day of work. $5 an hour on an 8 hour shift is almost 4x that amount.



So to be clear about MY suggestion.

That means the shopper here in the United States can make more money as they are a contractor and can add on additional shops theyd not have had room to fit otherwise. The shopper has less actual reports to do. More travel time and more shopping in the same amount of time.

The mystery shopping company gets someone who specifically does reports that no longer need to be re audited as the virtual aid is now filling that role while doing the report.

The virtual aid is making 3 to 4 times the minimum wage in their country.

Who exactly are you saying is the loser in this scenario? The shopper, the mystery shopping company, or the virtual aid?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2020 05:03AM by jrossetti.

@Jack in CO wrote:

@jrossetti How long did the shop reports in question that went from $65 to $60 take you?

I made zero recommendations regarding those particular shops, as ive stated.

Ive also agreed, several times, that the new system shadow has is a reduction in our pay, and it takes more time to do "not" do the report than doing the old reports which is only a win for the editing company who does the validating and a loss for shoppers.



I'm not entirely sure what your beef is. What I was peddling would have been awesome for everyone. What they did, is not at all what I had been proposing to companies.

However to answer your question, the retail shop reports usually took me 3-5 if done while fresh. About 75% of the video length if they could not be done the same day. There are often parts of a route where I simply can't afford to spend 20 minutes of reports throughout the day because I wont get to that last shop before a multi-hour gap of driving to the next shop and that costs me several hours of shop time the next day which is a huge loss of money.

I run my mystery shopping business as a finely tuned money making machine. Its often much more profitable to outsource some of the menial stuff. I was with a client where I was doing 15-20 shops a day every day for weeks. Having that virtual aid allowed me, on average, to add 2 to 3 shops extra per day with each paying 45 to 70 dollars.

It cost me 30-40 bucks a day to pay for the virtual aid. I was able to add 60 to 90 extra shops that month making me 3k to 5k more money for the cost of 1200 dollars.

Is there anyone here who can honestly say they would not be interested in giving someone 1200 if it made you 3500 dollars for no additional time spent? I'm not entirely sure I would believe that. That's enough extra money you earn personally to pay for an average mortage in this country.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2020 05:02AM by jrossetti.

Thank you!

In terms of your Angel Eyes equipment. I want to point out that I said up front that one of the problems with that stuff is it's not made well. Ive had 3 of the people who bought from you in the last year come to me in the last two months unhappy they bought them from you because the warranty was only for six months and its past that.

I wouldn't be so sure to blame shoppers when youre selling a product that is already known for falling apart and not being too durable. It's the same reason I stopped selling my branded button cameras. It was proven over time that it was simply a bad product. The DVR's were great, but the cameras were just not. It was cheap and lots of people bought them, but it caused issues for enough shoppers that we needed to stop.

HERE WE GO AGAIN JOE!

I am not going to get into a peeing contest with you over the quality of the camera as it is as good as the Lawmate BU19. You have your option and I have mine. I made a video to show shoppers the difference call Take The Angel Eye Challenge and made that video readily available. You and I will never see eye to eye on this so what is the point talking about it.

As for you saying you had 3 of my customers come to you, I would like you to tell me who they are? No one has approached me on any issues. If anyone would have I would have worked with them to correct the problem regardless of warranty and worked through it. So I do not believe you until you can prove it. The biggest issue shoppers have is understanding how to place the camera and use their body as the camera as they try to capture a target and that has nothing to do with the equipment. Furthermore, you state that quote "I've had 3 of the people who bought from you in the last year come to me in the last two months unhappy they bought them from you because the warranty was only for six months and its past that", that is also impossible as it hasn't been 6 months since the first kit was sold! Again another misleading statement. The shoppers who did purchase cameras even close to the 6-month mark are all using them in the field as I have to edit their videos for various MSC's.

It is my belief that you may not like the fact that I have been able to sell over 50 to shoppers and that I provide video training and support to each and every one of them. I know that my price point is much less but my objective is and always will be to get more shoppers into video shopping with a comparable product at a lesser price. Joe, I tried to extend an olive branch in the past and I do so again. None of my comments here are meant to be belittling, I am just stating the facts and instead of arguing in a public forum perhaps we take this outside and you contact me as I believe we have more in common than we don't. Balls in your court!

Enough said on that topic as we have digressed from the reason for this post and I only mentioned the above comment to defend myself and without any malice.
We are now digressing from the actual reason for this post and instead arguing with each other. We need to stop this and stay on topic!
Rosetti, even you have had run-ins with Pam and regardless of how you feel about me, we need to concentrate on that Pam issues and read what she has done and how she is a tyrant. Rosetti why not tell us what she did to you and how you were leaving the IMSC to start your own organization? or was that just a rumor?

Look people if we are just going to fight between ourselves we are not going to get anywhere. We need to stand together and come up with ideas on how to oust her or get her closed down. We need to think if we need another organization like her's and then perhaps form a new one that has certain guidelines that have the input of shoppers and MSC's. Then we may have something and we can move forward as a mighty force. Now is the time to come together as when the virus passes we will be ready to forge ahead.

Shoppers, we are losing sight of the underlying issue. It is that the IMSC is being run using strong-arm tactics and being run by a tyrant. Does this not bother you? I have pointed out two occasions where something is not right and you want to bicker about things that are not related. Please take those issues to another thread. For those interested in coming up with a solution, then let's talk about it here. How do we oust her majesty? Do we need to form a new organization that will take all the members away from her and she just fades away? Do we even need another organization? Input and ideas are needed to end her rule of tyranny! Thoughts?

Well, after reading this thread, I'm completely convinced to continue purchasing equipment from either Russell Wood or Joe (even if the equipment is marked up). Why? Both men stand behind their product, and would either fix/mediate/resolve an issue without crying like a little girl through multiple uses of social media. They are both clearly about business, and not butthurt to the point of vindictiveness due to refunding a shopper.

Steve, put on your big boy pants, and grow up. Geez.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2020 02:30PM by Eric in Tampa.

CONFERENCE REFUNDS
Someone had posted that IMSC was issuing refunds but I cannot find that information posted on the IMSC Facebook page indicating that to be true. Regardless of whether the venue returns the promoter's deposit is irrelevant as it is between the promoter and the venue as I was told it is the cost of doing business. The promotor can fight it out with the venue but the shoppers need to get their money back unless they are given the option and they agree to reschedule and forfeit the deposit. This should then be in writing and then there can be no misunderstanding. The organization cannot arbitrarily decide to hold and keep funds during a situation that currently exists. Yes, I agree with Rossetti that this is maybe a matter for the courts to decide but I think not as if an issue is ordered by the State that it is prohibited that there can be no more than 10 people at any gathering, then the promoter must speak to a hotel manager and work there way up the food chain. If the promoter does not then they have alterer motives such as using the money for a conference at a later date. If that is the case, then the attendee then has the right to cancel, get their money back and if they should decide to attend at a later date then they have the option to do so and should not be strong-armed into agreeing at this time.

Here are the current restrictions in Atlanta

Closings and Cancellations
Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms has declared a state of emergency and signed several executive orders:

Prohibiting public gatherings and events of 10 or more persons
Limiting restaurants to delivery and take-out service only
Bars and nightclubs that do not serve food must close
Other public businesses such as gyms, movie theaters, live performance venues, bowling alleys, arcades, and private social clubs must close
Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp has declared a public health emergency within the state.

Well, Eric you apparently do not see the underlying issue here. I really am not concerned about where you purchase your equipment. It is about being strong-armed into someone telling you how to run your business and then being the Judge and Jury!

I would seriously wonder why you think any organization is necessary or even useful.

I would assume any organization would be to educate and protect shoppers. This forum and some of the predecessor forums attempt to educate shoppers. When you read the complaints set forth on this forum there are only a very few overall that have significant merit and I am unconvinced that it would be a productive use of time and energy to have someone mediating them. Rather when shoppers complain in an open forum it is an opportunity for other shoppers to draw their own conclusions about the veracity of the claims and plan their own schedule of work accordingly.

Eric - The issue isn't equipment and how's it serviced, it's about a self appointed overseer of the industry that is telling other companies how to conduct their business. Especially when that organization itself had a no refund policy.

For the other recent question -

The question about a new organization is who would run it? What would the new organization do? What would the fees be, if any?

There are two organizations for this industry IMSC and MSPA. The MSPA use to be the only org. They had shopper conferences for awhile, but decided to stop them. This gave rise to the IMSC as they filled the void of no shopper conferences.

New Organization
In my opinion, there would be a board of directors and a President and these positions perhaps would be voted on by the organization members.
The organization would be a source for training new shoppers and other shoppers would volunteer their time and act as a mentor.
The fee would be free as there is no cost associated with running it and it would be completely voluntary
Just my quick thoughts

@tobiz777 wrote:

The organization would be a source for training new shoppers and other shoppers would volunteer their time and act as a mentor.

I guess what happens free on this forum on a daily basis is chopped liver.

I think people are failing to mention that the IMSC isn't an organization it's a business. I'm not saying it's a profitable one or not. On that I have no clue. But it is a business that is owned by one person or a group of people. It does have a board of directors, but they are all MSC owners, making it more of an MSPA than a shopper advocacy.

Flash I did not say that but how many NEW shoppers even know of this site? And with all the bickering that goes on do we really what new shoppers to see that. If I would have seen this site prior to becoming a shopper I would have thought twice.

bgriffin - Exactly! That is why things need to change! A for shoppers organization should not have any influence from MSC's except if and when a conference is held and then the money provided goes to only pay the direct expenses of the conference.

I was just notified by the IMSC has just posted that all attendees will be getting refunds! Took long enough for her to let everyone now. Wonder how she likes being pressured!

@tobiz777 wrote:

Flash I did not say that but how many NEW shoppers even know of this site? And with all the bickering that goes on do we really what new shoppers to see that. If I would have seen this site prior to becoming a shopper I would have thought twice.

First, we get a whole lot of new shoppers. They are referred by schedulers, they find us by googling, we get them from all over the world thanks to search engines. They find us when they have questions about that unexpected check in the mail and ask about it being a scam. Some then stick around for the real stuff. We probably have more visibility than any new shopper organization would have. At any time you will note that there are many more users on the site than are logged in. We have many readers who have not become members and it is not unusual to have someone mention in the Introductions section that they are finally becoming a member after reading here for months.

Second, if a potential shopper can't find their way to the New Mystery Shopper section or use the Search feature to find information, do they really have the computer savvy to succeed as a shopper?

You seem to surround yourself with bickering. There is a lot of good, solid information about companies here, even though there are some members and some companies that are less than convivial.

@tobiz777 wrote:

Flash I did not say that but how many NEW shoppers even know of this site? And with all the bickering that goes on do we really what new shoppers to see that. If I would have seen this site prior to becoming a shopper I would have thought twice.

So what's the easier solution?

-A: Stop bickering and promote this forum.
-B: Create an entirely new organization that somehow upends the IMSC without splintering the group of shoppers that support an alternative to the MSPA.

You can probably locate it far back in the archives here; This entire discussion already took place around a decade ago, when the IMSC was first developed. A large group of shoppers on the forums were concerned about the actions of the MSPA, and made a decision to start our own organization. It was a frustrating endeavor to say the least, since when I was making an attempt to be involved, I was insistent that it be a non-profit organization for the benefit of shoppers. Certain other parties being discussed here vehemently disagreed, and insisted that they wanted to financially profit from it...and that's when I washed my hands of the whole situation.

Giving credit where credit is due, @Flash warned at that time of the issues that such a group would face, and it took me some time to see the wisdom in her advice.

The information is here for those who want it, bickering or not. Those who need to be spoonfed lessons on how to be productive, or are more interested in the social aspect of the conventions, will do fine with the IMSC as it now stands. A for-profit organization that basically exists to take money from those who who are paid a pittance to begin with.....

@SteveSoCal wrote:

You can probably locate it far back in the archives here; This entire discussion already took place around a decade ago, when the IMSC was first developed. A large group of shoppers on the forums were concerned about the actions of the MSPA, and made a decision to start our own organization. It was a frustrating endeavor to say the least, since when I was making an attempt to be involved, I was insistent that it be a non-profit organization for the benefit of shoppers. Certain other parties being discussed here vehemently disagreed, and insisted that they wanted to financially profit from it...and that's when I washed my hands of the whole situation.

Giving credit where credit is due, @Flash warned at that time of the issues that such a group would face, and it took me some time to see the wisdom in her advice.

The information is here for those who want it, bickering or not. Those who need to be spoonfed lessons on how to be productive, or are more interested in the social aspect of the conventions, will do fine with the IMSC as it now stands. A for-profit organization that basically exists to take money from those who who are paid a pittance to begin with.....

This is the truth. Speakers went to conferences for free because they wanted to be helpful. They were paid no fees and no travel as far as I know. This was perfect for Pam because she quit her full-time job and planned on making money off of this. It has been shady from the start, culminating in the video equipment drama and seat filler situation.

@tobiz777 Guy, that information was posted on one of the IMSC Facebook groups on 3/20/20, noting that the host hotel released the $24,000 commitment, and that shoppers were being refunded.

Next piece of misinformation, please? You really sound like some former reality TV host that I know of on Twitter.

@tobiz777 wrote:

CONFERENCE REFUNDS
Someone had posted that IMSC was issuing refunds but I cannot find that information posted on the IMSC Facebook page indicating that to be true. Regardless of whether the venue returns the promoter's deposit is irrelevant as it is between the promoter and the venue as I was told it is the cost of doing business. The promotor can fight it out with the venue but the shoppers need to get their money back unless they are given the option and they agree to reschedule and forfeit the deposit. This should then be in writing and then there can be no misunderstanding. The organization cannot arbitrarily decide to hold and keep funds during a situation that currently exists. Yes, I agree with Rossetti that this is maybe a matter for the courts to decide but I think not as if an issue is ordered by the State that it is prohibited that there can be no more than 10 people at any gathering, then the promoter must speak to a hotel manager and work there way up the food chain. If the promoter does not then they have alterer motives such as using the money for a conference at a later date. If that is the case, then the attendee then has the right to cancel, get their money back and if they should decide to attend at a later date then they have the option to do so and should not be strong-armed into agreeing at this time.

Here are the current restrictions in Atlanta

Closings and Cancellations
Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms has declared a state of emergency and signed several executive orders:

Prohibiting public gatherings and events of 10 or more persons
Limiting restaurants to delivery and take-out service only
Bars and nightclubs that do not serve food must close
Other public businesses such as gyms, movie theaters, live performance venues, bowling alleys, arcades, and private social clubs must close
Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp has declared a public health emergency within the state.

I went to one of the earliest conferences. At least it was the first to be held outside LV. I could see some benefit for some shoppers, such as route shoppers or those trying to take it to a full time endeavor. Otherwise, the cost/benefit ratio didn't seem to be there for the average shopper. At that time I was blissfully unaware it was for profit. It was several years before I found out that tidbit. The lack of transparency left a bad taste for me. Despite all of it, I really did consider at least two other conferences but only for the opportunity to meet some other shoppers I had grown fond of through the forum and to have a mini-vacation.

Eric in Tampa LOL - before you make your cute remarks, the comment was meant to be a question so I could try to locate it but somehow you took in a different way. I was hoping someone would have directed it to me so know I was able to find it but still does not change the rest of my post as to she was on the hook refund, regardless.

Someone had posted that IMSC was issuing refunds but I cannot find that information posted on the IMSC Facebook page indicating that to be true.

@SteveSoCal you are exactly right!

@bgriffin now that's funny - even funnier that is actually the name of a MSC! They are the ones that merged or bought MaritzCX LMAO

I have been to both IMSC and MSPA conferences. MSPA was by far a better conference, better organized and better speakers. And also, a pretty nice spread of food. The IMSC was not well organized and while there were a few good speakers, most were not good speakers and presented just basic information that anyone with a bit of smarts and was a self starter could figure out on their own.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2020 10:56PM by PA Shopper.