I'm glad someone mentioned this. I'm not a fan of political correctness either. I do my best to be respectful and kind, but within reasonable boundaries. Funny thing - a very nice man called me a 'doll' the other day, which has always been a compliment. Then he took a step back, and said that he hopes I'm not offended, because he apparently offended some lady by calling her a doll. I haven't run into this before, but this shop is definitely a stark reminder of how things have changed.

As usual the whole thing is blown out of proportion. School kids change their last names all the time. At the beginning of a school year, the kid's caretaker changes so the kid changes their last name. The school records record the legal name but teachers use the kid's preferred last name. No big deal and teachers don't get hysterical about it. Using the name that the kid prefers is a way to help the kid. If anything, it gives some teachers a chance to gossip about some kid and their home life.

I sorta miss the life we lived 20 seconds ago when none of this stuff existed.

This "stuff" always existed; we just did not address it.

You were dinged for using a gender-neutral pronoun, but you were not supposed to use gender-specific ones? Did the editor explain what term you were expected to have used?

In the classroom I don't address students by pronouns, I use their names. And as someone said, I use their preferred name. They may have to remind me; as a sub I have to remember a lot of names!!!
Pronouns are easily a non issue there.

I have a much longer answer, but am off to substitute on a Hutterite colony where everyone in the community lives a pretty prescribed existence. Few changes over time there.

That's not what I said. Obviously, every little thing does not escalate into WW2. But almost all the big issues stem from small things.

It really didn't.

@walesmaven wrote:

This "stuff" always existed; we just did not address it.

I've had this conversation with several folks recently and I realized that my potential considering it as a "problem" (it's not, I don't care one way or another and am more than happy to comply with whatever works best for you) stems from being someone who presents typically female, is cishetero, and has a stereotypical female name spelled in the stereotypical manner. However, were I to be something else, gender neutral would be far preferred than to have to continuously correct people, deal with their not very well concealed surprise that I am not as they expected, or, in some cases, deal with their hostility because they have to expand their horizons of what other humans should be. It's really not that much of a big deal to make a small adjustment as to how I navigate the world, certainly not even coming close to what others have to deal with. I have a lot of empathy for those who are often reminded that they are not seen as who they truly are simply because they don't fit in the typical box. If I need to make a slight adjustment in my behavior and use gender neutral pronouns? How demoralizing it must be to read a report that comments on my doing my job while simultaneously misgendering me.

From the perspective of the company, I would expect that a report with gender neutral pronouns would be a better product. It would also plant a seed of doubt in the mind of the reader of the report as to the veracity of the report if its writer was inaccurate about the employee's gender. It could run the risk of the report being challenged on the basis of stereotyping - if the employee doesn't fit neatly into a box or if you get an evaluator who holds certain views of how a specific gender "should be" and therefore errs in the employee's gender, what else are they being inaccurate about based on their perception of the how the employee "should be" based on their presumed gender (or gender stereotypes).

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2022 05:28AM by KarenMSW.

@digikiss wrote:

You were dinged for using a gender-neutral pronoun, but you were not supposed to use gender-specific ones? Did the editor explain what term you were expected to have used?

They did not, Presumably, they wanted me to say, "the associate" each of the 20 times it came up in the report. Or the editor was just a ^&%^#^@!

I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm "offended" when I'm referred to as "they," but as an overweight person, I really don't like to be referred to as more than one person. "They" may be gender-neutral, but it does not mean one person. Words have meaning and it cheapens the entire language when any group can just randomly change the meaning of a particular word (or phrase) to fit whatever narrative they're pushing.

This is not a hasty and random change. The Oxford English Dictionary traces the singular "they" back to 1375, when it appears in the medieval romance William and the Werewolf.

@HoomanShopper wrote:

I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm "offended" when I'm referred to as "they," but as an overweight person, I really don't like to be referred to as more than one person. "They" may be gender-neutral, but it does not mean one person. Words have meaning and it cheapens the entire language when any group can just randomly change the meaning of a particular word (or phrase) to fit whatever narrative they're pushing.

You know though, mystery shoppers are just business reporters by another name. Every single place I have ever written, edited or reported for has had its own set of editorial guidelines on how they wanted things written, spelled, certain words used, or not, etc. Writing guidelines have been standard practice when it comes to dealing with words for hundreds if not thousands of years, and that is not even to mention grammar. I am talking about the writing that is done in the context of one's job. I still cringe at some of the guidelines I have had to deal with on some of my assignments, but a dollar is still a dollar.

@Tanischri87 wrote:

It really didn't.

@walesmaven wrote:

This "stuff" always existed; we just did not address it.

Tell that to the indigenous people.

It rang up my order. It delivered my check. It thanked me for coming.

Soon they'll be no way to evaluate employees - MS game over lol. Just use robots to serve.

@digikiss wrote:

One was a woman, the other was a man. I complied with the instructions, but I don't get it. I am a woman, and nothing about being called 'her' or 'she' offends me. Are people actually offended when you use their gender pronouns, because the whole thing seems absurd to me.

The point is that one should never assume either the gender of a person based simply on observation. Unless the associate verbally informs your of their gender or if their business card indicates the person's pronouns how is one to know without stereotyping based on mere physical appearance?

I came across one of these shops that specifically wanted me to use "they" in place of "he" or "she." As soon as I read the instructions, I could hear my eighth grade English teacher yelling in my ear how that was improper grammar. Instead of using "they" I used "the associate." I noted at the end of the report that after having spent most of my life trying to perfect my writing skills, I was not about to begin using improper English in my reports. The report was approved.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2022 05:41AM by shawnthewoman.

@shawnthewoman wrote:

I came across one of these shops that specifically wanted me to use "they" in place of "he" or "she." As soon as I read the instructions, I could hear my eighth grade English teacher yelling in my ear how that was improper grammar. Instead of using "they" I used "the associate." I noted at the end of the report that after having spent most of my life trying to perfect my writing skills, I was not about to begin using improper English in my reports. The report was approved.

Language evolves. "They" is now an accepted gender-neutral singular pronoun. Hopefully your former English teacher has evolved with the language.

As a professional copywriter, I abhor the use of "they" as a singular third-person pronoun. I consider it very informal usage and technically incorrect. (How can a plural be singular?) I use "his or her," as unwieldy as some people think it to be, in the case of a person of unknown or unstated gender. I use the correct pronoun if that's what the client's style dictates. If the client prefers "they," I use it. So, if the MSC wants "they," "they" it will get. The other exception being when one interviews someone, it's now good practice to ask her/him what pronoun he/she prefers. And use it, of course.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2022 05:18PM by BirdyC.

Oh, and I'm fully aware that "they" is now considered acceptable as a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun. I don't. LOL.

I prefer a term that had been bandied about at one time: ze. Perfectly clear as a third-person singular noun. Eliminates the he/she/they conundrum altogether if one is writing about a person of unknown/unstated gender or unknown preference as to pronoun. I'm not sure why that didn't catch on. I wish it would.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2022 05:20PM by BirdyC.

I'm sorry it seems absurd to you but yes I get more than offended. I get triggered. I may look female but my pronouns are they/them.

There is one valid solution if you cannot or will not meet a shop's requirement; do not accept the shop. On that note, I think that this thread really needs to be closed.

@777bre777 wrote:

I'm sorry it seems absurd to you but yes I get more than offended. I get triggered. I may look female but my pronouns are they/them.

I hope you make this clear to others so that they don't unwittingly make a mistake. I respect how others wish to be designated, but if I don't know, I might get it wrong.

@walesmaven wrote:

There is one valid solution if you cannot or will not meet a shop's requirement; do not accept the shop. On that note, I think that this thread really needs to be closed.

What if people are finding this informative or that it's helpful to discuss certain aspects of it? I think there are many things to be learned from this thread.

Controversial subject here. Not all posts are/were related to Mystery Shopping Discussion. As such, some have been moved to the General Chat section of the forum. Thanks for sticking with the OP's intent.

That’s not at all true since you removed mine because I disagreed. Or someone complained about a woman speaking up. You removed mine that were about shopping and expectations of what should be in the guidelines.
Meanwhile, half the ones remaining have absolutely nothing to do with mystery shopping. They’re about school and personal triggers and language evolving.

@Forum Moderator wrote:

Controversial subject here. Not all posts are/were related to Mystery Shopping Discussion. As such, some have been moved to the General Chat section of the forum. Thanks for sticking with the OP's intent.

As always, feel free to repost. This thread is for Mystery Shopping Discussion. Differing opinions have been respectful and are welcome.

That makes no sense since like I said you deleted mine and not all the ones about schools and language etc. Why would I repost to have them deleted again?

@Forum Moderator wrote:

As always, feel free to repost. This thread is for Mystery Shopping Discussion. Differing opinions have been respectful and are welcome.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2022 11:39PM by Notme2021.