(Not everyone understands the concept of a food desert. It is not always a possible choice to up and move to suburbia where the grocery stores are. If a gas station is your closest grocery store, and you have no access to a car, you get what you can. Your grocery budget does not go as far at a gas station as it would at a grocery store. )

@Runnindemredlights wrote:

Food deserts are very common in poor neighborhoods. The lack of availability of food to poor people is NOT a personal responsibility problem, it is a corporate and government problem. In France and Europe, the countries actively ban and suppress processed foods. Those actions are not personal actions, it is their society and government.

It's a personal choice where you live and what you eat. The government is not there to play "daddy" and solve all your problems.

It is not always a choice where you live and what you eat. Moving is expensive. Not everybody can afford to do so. There have also been studies that have shown that in some of our most impoverished neighborhoods people do not have access to grocery stores any sort of market with fresh produce.

It is true that most folks can choose where they live and most folks can choose what they eat. It is also true that many folks make poor food choices. It is also true that many folks (included educated folks) do not have a concept of what healthy eating is.

Schools have nutrition programs to educate kids from young ages about healthy eating, but that is often undermined when cafeterias are not permitted to serve healthy food. Meanwhile, one of the biggest voices on the American stage is a man who lives on fast food and claims that exercise is bad for you. It's nuts.

@tstewart3 wrote:

@Runnindemredlights wrote:

Food deserts are very common in poor neighborhoods. The lack of availability of food to poor people is NOT a personal responsibility problem, it is a corporate and government problem. In France and Europe, the countries actively ban and suppress processed foods. Those actions are not personal actions, it is their society and government.

It's a personal choice where you live and what you eat. The government is not there to play "daddy" and solve all your problems.

I definitely hope we can as a culture beat the powers that be to enhance our neighbors' lives.

It's sad that milk is supposed to be low fat for people on welfare. It's sad that perhaps almond milk is not provided for in the WIC program. I looked it up since my wife was concerned about "Vitamin D" or calcium and that's why we needed milk for our growing kids. My almond/coconut milk has 2.5 times the Vit D and 45% RDA VS 25% RDA in the cows milk.

And I was interested to see what cereals are paid for under WIC (those yellow stickers). Of course, it's all those cereals with added sugar. It's things like these that make me angry that our government is so behind the times on dietary guidelines that it still thinks fat is evil and added sugar is okay.

Thank you all for your inputs.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2019 03:17AM by Runnindemredlights.

I have been on a quest for healthy living for a while now. From reading many many articles and research, I figured that sugar is the culprit of all the problems including obesity, high blood pressure, heart disease, joint disease, diabetes... list goes on. There were no kids with diabetes when I was growing up. But now, there are kids with an insulin pump. WTH...

I have a friend who has been diabetic for almost 10 years. He contacted me recently because his Doctor was going to put him on more insulin and stronger meds, and he wanted to get off of them. His glucose level averaged between 235 and 350. I told him to consult his Doctor, but he said no one would give him any nutritional advice because "we are not licensed to do that." He knew I was a health nut, so he asked for help. I told him I was not an RD or even a nutritionist but he was desperate. We started mostly veggie and protein diet about a month ago. Today, he is not on insulin, and his sugar is between 70 and 150 depending on the time of the day. He cut all sugar, fruits (in high sugar), oatmeal, grains, rice, pasta, and bread. He is on low carb, mild protein/fat diet and exercise daily. Exercise is important, I told him because the muscle requires sugar to move. The more exercise, the less sugar in the system. It's simple math. I am not a licensed nutritionist, but I can read. There are many articles that talk about how to stay healthy. Instead, we are in a society where we eat whatever we want and when we get sick, they cover up symptoms with drugs and don't address the root cause of the problem. It is a shame. OK - I'm done. Have a great day!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2019 05:20AM by Chickster.

John Galt 2020.

My Doctor told me I can't eat any nuts or popcorn due to a condition I have...I also looked it up on the computer and found out more info. Good Doctors today will know some basics on food, and they also have seminars pertaining to your condition, so information is there, just look. My condition is well under control thanks to my Doctor and myself...yes, sugar and the way they process both flour and sugar are things I have cut out.
Just noticed this is on the Bernie Sanders thread, another hijack.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2019 03:02PM by Irene_L.A..

All physicians have some training in nutrition - though not as much as a nutritionist, of course. They should have information on hand about different diets to recommend to folks based on various needs, especially for something as prevalent as diabetes. At the least, they should be able to refer a friend to somebody who can work with a patient's diet. Adjusting the eating habits of a patient is a basic standard of care for diabetics.

I think you friend needs a new doctor.

How many people catch themselves at pre-diabetes and can avert medicated disease? Eat or drink the protein first-- before consuming the starch. Stir in some powdered fiber if the meal is low in fiber. Aim for a 2-1 ratio of protein to starch (especially simple carbs). It is just that simple to offset many unwanted effects of some carbs. This is an actual recommendation by a dietitian for coping with pre-diabetes. I have forgotten the name of the book it is in, but It is specifically recommended for pre-diabetes and as a potential way to avoid future use of meds, which would be necessary if pre-diabetes advanced to medicated disease. It is not expensive, difficult, or embarrassing. it is just a little bit of knowledge applied to meals at home and restaurants. Depending upon the restaurant and your relationship with the staff, you can have many meals modified for you.

If a person is willing to do a little research and know themselves, they can make changes. If they can do the simple things mentioned above, they can learn more tricks and tips that will fit into their lives. People really can do a lot for themselves.

Someone sent me this great video -- she's in Manhattan (highest cost of living outside of Bay area), and presents a very non-political, easy to follow, way to make a month's worth of EBT last for two months. It's balanced -- granted she's vegetarian, but adding meat to her suggestions wouldn't come up to that second month's EBT. [www.youtube.com]

(What things do people actually buy with EBT? #1 purchase is SOFT DRINKS Infographics: [www.youtube.com])

There is one other thing I wanted to mention about linking people to food at home. I found the idea in a 1970's-ish book about co-operative cooking. The basics: As a team, members of multiple families or other groups will develop recipes, contribute money, designate a shopper/-s, and share basic food prep tasks. Then, everyone eats for a month or other time frame. For example, if they choose spaghetti, they would make enough marinara for everyone at one time. Everyone would cook their own pasta and add the pre-made sauce. Sodium and sugars are controlled, if necessary. Variations are possible, if people are willing to experiment with recipes. One basic cookie dough can be the basis for dozens of different cookies. If a group wants cookies, it would be easy to start with the basic dough and make whatever they want. 'This would work well with some (not all!) breads. Buying in bulk might save everyone some money. Doing some food prep at one time might save everyone even more time later. (I do this on a small, one-household scale. I do not have to vet the communal shoppers or hope that all the earmarked money buys the designated food or teach anyone how to wield a kitchen knife properly.) I wonder if anyone here has experience with a larger-scale operation and could tell us if this works well or not.

That's kind of line the old idea of a commune...

@Shop-et-al wrote:

There is one other thing I wanted to mention about linking people to food at home. I found the idea in a 1970's-ish book about co-operative cooking. The basics: As a team, members of multiple families or other groups will develop recipes, contribute money, designate a shopper/-s, and share basic food prep tasks. Then, everyone eats for a month or other time frame. For example, if they choose spaghetti, they would make enough marinara for everyone at one time. Everyone would cook their own pasta and add the pre-made sauce. Sodium and sugars are controlled, if necessary. Variations are possible, if people are willing to experiment with recipes. One basic cookie dough can be the basis for dozens of different cookies. If a group wants cookies, it would be easy to start with the basic dough and make whatever they want. 'This would work well with some (not all!) breads. Buying in bulk might save everyone some money. Doing some food prep at one time might save everyone even more time later. (I do this on a small, one-household scale. I do not have to vet the communal shoppers or hope that all the earmarked money buys the designated food or teach anyone how to wield a kitchen knife properly.) I wonder if anyone here has experience with a larger-scale operation and could tell us if this works well or not.

@MFJohnston wrote:

That's kind of line the old idea of a commune...

@Shop-et-al wrote:

There is one other thing I wanted to mention about linking people to food at home. I found the idea in a 1970's-ish book about co-operative cooking. The basics: As a team, members of multiple families or other groups will develop recipes, contribute money, designate a shopper/-s, and share basic food prep tasks. Then, everyone eats for a month or other time frame. For example, if they choose spaghetti, they would make enough marinara for everyone at one time. Everyone would cook their own pasta and add the pre-made sauce. Sodium and sugars are controlled, if necessary. Variations are possible, if people are willing to experiment with recipes. One basic cookie dough can be the basis for dozens of different cookies. If a group wants cookies, it would be easy to start with the basic dough and make whatever they want. 'This would work well with some (not all!) breads. Buying in bulk might save everyone some money. Doing some food prep at one time might save everyone even more time later. (I do this on a small, one-household scale. I do not have to vet the communal shoppers or hope that all the earmarked money buys the designated food or teach anyone how to wield a kitchen knife properly.) I wonder if anyone here has experience with a larger-scale operation and could tell us if this works well or not.

The author seemed to envision neighborhood groups or other situations where people might want to share work and benefit form their labors. My experience is that a one-household version of the general concept works well for me.

Do you, MFJoshnston, or any other posters have experience with this type of situation? If so, I would love to hear from you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2019 12:32AM by Shop-et-al.

[/quote]
The author seemed to envision neighborhood groups or other situations where people might want to share work and benefit form their labors. My experience is that a one-household version of the general concept works well for me.

Do you, MFJoshnston, or any other posters have experience with this type of situation? If so, I would love to hear from you.

I participated in a neighborhood food sharing. It was based on the cookbook “The 8x8 Cookbook” by Kathy Strahs but later included recipes from the other members.

The recipes made 4 to 8 servings each. The members were 5 neighbors and me. Each member bought 6 8x8 baking dishes. Since we didn't want to buy extra baking dishes, the empty dishes were delivered to the porch of the other members by Sunday morning to be filled with the assigned recipe by that afternoon.

We met once a week at 5PM Sunday afternoon to exchange meals (made that day by another neighbor), pick the recipes for the following Sunday then draw numbers for our assignment for the next week. Each person would select 1 recipe for the next week. The six recipes would be numbered and then each member would draw a number.

On Sunday afternoon, after making 6 of a recipe earlier that day, each member ended up with 6 dishes (5 made by other members) thus each member cooked for 2-3 hours making 1 recipe 6 times and ended up with a week's meals that only had to be heated up.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2019 09:41PM by tstewart3.

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

Keep in mind that employees would no longer have deductions from their pay for group medical, and employers would not be forking out double again that, like they currently do. Public taxes already cover Medicaid, Medicare, CHIP, and various plans for government employees. It is a double-dip in the cheque: a deduction for your own medical plan plus one for the ones you don't qualify for on account of having the one you pay for.

Having that one extra deduction, for the universal medical plan, would be lower than the combined deductions we currently have for many, if not most, people. (I experienced this when I moved to the States from Ontario. I thought my take-home would be more because I had bought into the concept of taxes being lower. My take-home was a bit less, proportionally, and yet I still had co-pays and the employer's plan had lists of providers they would cover in-network. In Canada, I never put off a trip to the doctor when I was sick becaue I was waiting for pay-day for my co-pay. You see that all the time, here.

Medicare is not funded by "public taxes". Medicare tax is 1.45% with no wage base limit (all wages are subject to Medicare tax) and an additional 1.45% of employee wages paid for by the employer. Additionally, self employed people pay Medicare tax of 2.9 percent on "Self employment earnings" (but you are able to deduct the employer portion).

@tstewart3 wrote:

Medicare is not funded by "public taxes". Medicare tax is 1.45% with no wage base limit (all wages are subject to Medicare tax) and an additional 1.45% of employee wages paid for by the employer. Additionally, self employed people pay Medicare tax of 2.9 percent on "Self employment earnings" (but you are able to deduct the employer portion).

So... that's not a tax? Are you saying it is voluntary, like the collection plate at church or a go-fund-me? It looks like a tax, is it deducted like a tax... it's a tax.

Here's a story from someone who did not have health insurance for nearly 10 years. Due to devastating financial circumstances, my husband and I lost our employer sponsored health insurance and could simply not afford to pay the high cost of insurance ourselves. At that time there was no one rallying to our cause and worrying about the "uninsured." We simply carried on and did what we needed to do. Even after the ACA came into fruition, not being poor enough to qualify for truly low cost or free insurance, we found that it would have cost several hundred dollars per month for coverage that was minimal with extremely high deductibles that would not have made sense to even have the insurance. Being healthy, we would have been paying exorbitant rates for "just in case" we got a catastrophic condition. We were fortunate and got through that rough period with self-pay. I never considered showing up at the ER for free care. They would have billed us anyway. It's not like I didn't have any money or ID etc. Husband hasn't been to a doctor for years, until recently when he broke a hip (another story, but he has medicare now) I only went to the doctor when I needed to or when I needed glasses/contacts etc. I mystery shopped the dentist to get my xrays and cleanings and paid for my own fillings when needed. Eye doctor charged lowest fee. Primary care provider charged lowest fee on their scale. When I lost hearing in one ear due to Meniere's Disease, I needed an MRI to rule out tumor. For self-pay, the hospital charged about 1/4 of what the cost would be if I had insurance. Ear doctor also worked with me to bill lowest possible fee and there were many visits. When the medical professionals found out I had no insurance, they were very willing to provide lower bills...much lower. I suppose they would rather be paid something instead of nothing. To me, this is a huge problem with our health care system. Inflated drug and medical service costs. If that could be somehow straightened out, it would solve many problems. Not to knock anyone with great insurance coverage, but I have seen family members and friends with good employer sponsored coverage run to the doctor for every little thing...ingrown toenails...colds etc. I have been in awe at the number or prescriptions some take. Drugs are necessary sometimes, but I think we, as a whole, are too quick to pop a pill when it might not be totally necessary. Eating healthy foods, removing the salt shaker, and exercising can prevent lots of health issues.

Also, now that I'm not a youngster anymore and on Medicare, I can vouch that the amount of the doctors' fees that Medicare pays is much less than what the doctors charge. Who actually pays the full amount? Really? Anyone? or is it just the insurance companies. If there was Medicare for all, I think we would see a large drop in the number of doctors in practice as they would not be making nearly what they are making now after spending how many years in schooling. However, I believe the fees are way out of whack and I also think there is a lot of abuse of the system going on. So, in summary, I think the insurance system, drug prices and medical providers fees need to be examined and brought to more realistic amounts.

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

(Not everyone understands the concept of a food desert. It is not always a possible choice to up and move to suburbia where the grocery stores are. If a gas station is your closest grocery store, and you have no access to a car, you get what you can. Your grocery budget does not go as far at a gas station as it would at a grocery store. )

Interesting point. Let's take one more step and compare the cost of foods at gas stations versus those available online. (As long as delivery services can get to you, you can pretty good food via the internet )

@Shop-et-al wrote:

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

(Not everyone understands the concept of a food desert. It is not always a possible choice to up and move to suburbia where the grocery stores are. If a gas station is your closest grocery store, and you have no access to a car, you get what you can. Your grocery budget does not go as far at a gas station as it would at a grocery store. )

Interesting point. Let's take one more step and compare the cost of foods at gas stations versus those available online. (As long as delivery services can get to you, you can pretty good food via the internet )

You must live in an urban area. Rural food deserts are way out of range for Uber. Some grocery stores in urban areas are starting to deliver, which is fantastic. Aldi is starting to pop up in some underserved areas as well.

Ever met anyone who did not have a debit card or paypal? It's a thing. Not everyone can open one. That is why Western Union makes money hand-over-fist with bill payment and money order processing. There are extra financial fees that can come with being poor: Cheque cashing, bill payments, money orders, prepaid debit cards for online shopping. Right off the bat, someone without access to a bank account will pay extra for the means to order anything online.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2019 12:15PM by heartlandcanuck.

It's a salary employment based tax. If you work for cash, you pay no Medicare tax but under single payer you would still get healthcare. If you have under $400 net self employment taxes, you pay no Medicare tax but under single payer you would still get healthcare.

Of course you think Medicare for all (really the standard will be VA for all) is great becase you have it in Canada. It's been proven over and over the lower standard of care in Canada v USA and people who only see the upside of VA for all will be the first to complain when they wait months for a surgery or other healthcare. In Canada, 56% of patients wait more than 4 weeks to see a doctor acording to CBC.CA.

Under the Cloward-Piven Strategy: How to create a social state: The first and most important is Healthcare–Control healthcare and you control the people. By the time people who want socialized medicine realize it was a terrible mistake, it will be too late.

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

@Shop-et-al wrote:

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

(Not everyone understands the concept of a food desert. It is not always a possible choice to up and move to suburbia where the grocery stores are. If a gas station is your closest grocery store, and you have no access to a car, you get what you can. Your grocery budget does not go as far at a gas station as it would at a grocery store. )

Interesting point. Let's take one more step and compare the cost of foods at gas stations versus those available online. (As long as delivery services can get to you, you can pretty good food via the internet )

You must live in an urban area. Rural food deserts are way out of range for Uber. Some grocery stores in urban areas are starting to deliver, which is fantastic. Aldi is starting to pop up in some underserved areas as well.

Ever met anyone who did not have a debit card or paypal? It's a thing. Not everyone can open one. That is why Western Union makes money hand-over-fist with bill payment and money order processing. There are extra financial fees that can come with being poor: Cheque cashing, bill payments, money orders, prepaid debit cards for online shopping. Right off the bat, someone without access to a bank account will pay extra for the means to order anything online.

Everyone can open a checking account and there are banks and credit unions who charge no monthly fees for accounts. The small number of people who can't open a checking account are those who have bounced checks and not repaid them. It's not a question of being poor, it's a question of personal responsibility.

Uber in my town signed up to deliver for Starbucks, it's their way of getting into the city, great for their business.
I am in a sub and happy to see them here. There must be a reason so many of you live rurally, you must want that, and for that, you don't pay the price of everything at your fingertips, just can't have it all, I'm happy to have 6 Kroger's, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's and a great Sprouts within 3 to 4 miles and no parking meters, everything a city has but so much easier to get around, and yes, I pay high taxes for it all. Still love a city, but happy not to live in one....20 miles allows me to go in and explore non-chain restaurants (on my dime). Home delivery is the new thing, everyone does it, great for seniors no longer driving. Those without these conveniences also don't pay high property taxes or state taxes, which is over 9% in CA...everything I buy, add 9%, considering all that, it's a wash, as we pay for our conveniences. Stop complaining, your choice, your problem.

Rural dweller here. I have access to too much food. Want some?

Am not voting for either Bernie or Biden. Time for the oldies to let the youngies run the country. And there is no way in hell that I would even consider Trump!!!

@MFJohnston wrote:

All physicians have some training in nutrition - though not as much as a nutritionist, of course. They should have information on hand about different diets to recommend to folks based on various needs, especially for something as prevalent as diabetes. At the least, they should be able to refer a friend to somebody who can work with a patient's diet. Adjusting the eating habits of a patient is a basic standard of care for diabetics.

I think you friend needs a new doctor.

Actually, the average nutrition education for a MD is a single lecture during their entire med school.

According to this article, it's about 20 times that.
[health.usnews.com]

Even so, if a physician has a diabetic patient and doesn't feel comfortable talking nutrition, the physician has a moral and professional responsibility to refer that patient to somebody who can. I would suggest not doing so is nothing short of malpractice.

@stormraven73 wrote:

@MFJohnston wrote:

All physicians have some training in nutrition - though not as much as a nutritionist, of course. They should have information on hand about different diets to recommend to folks based on various needs, especially for something as prevalent as diabetes. At the least, they should be able to refer a friend to somebody who can work with a patient's diet. Adjusting the eating habits of a patient is a basic standard of care for diabetics.

I think you friend needs a new doctor.

Actually, the average nutrition education for a MD is a single lecture during their entire med school.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2019 03:16PM by MFJohnston.

I was diagnosed with a pre-diabetic condition because the Dr. said my numbers were high, and I was told to cut back on sugar and certain carbs,and lose a few pds., which I did. Took three weeks and my numbers went down as did my symtons. Dr. has information and don't forget they are all now on the computer,and that lectures are given to inform you as to what to do. Much different than when those surveys were taken. I got more than enough information to help myself from my Doctor. I'd rather believe the real deal than any report. I personally know my Dr. is a hiker and into good health, so, it depends on your Doctor, and I am lucky to have one that is in tune and on Medicare. I highly recommend AARP's United Healthcare for seniors, (but it may be the luck of the Irish). I will say without a doubt there is good information out there, also google your disease and don't believe an old survey. My ex is being treated for his beginning stages of Alzheimer's with a special diet that he has delivered to his home, and he is prolonging this disease, he is able to stay home and not go to a home...long story and lots of work. Lots of research and progress, thank G__.

I'm through but have gone through so many different things my Dr. helped me with, if not happy with your Dr's. info, change Dr's. Many health problems can be reversed or at least put in remission by a change in diet, food is usually the cause. I know this from experience.

Aaahhhhh...... I was not referring to Uber. I was referring to foods that can come to you via FedEx, UPS, or other such services. I have used them. and we are testing multiple brands to find out what we prefer. There are options, and preferences, even.

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

@Shop-et-al wrote:

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

(Not everyone understands the concept of a food desert. It is not always a possible choice to up and move to suburbia where the grocery stores are. If a gas station is your closest grocery store, and you have no access to a car, you get what you can. Your grocery budget does not go as far at a gas station as it would at a grocery store. )

Interesting point. Let's take one more step and compare the cost of foods at gas stations versus those available online. (As long as delivery services can get to you, you can pretty good food via the internet )

You must live in an urban area. Rural food deserts are way out of range for Uber. Some grocery stores in urban areas are starting to deliver, which is fantastic. Aldi is starting to pop up in some underserved areas as well.

Ever met anyone who did not have a debit card or paypal? It's a thing. Not everyone can open one. That is why Western Union makes money hand-over-fist with bill payment and money order processing. There are extra financial fees that can come with being poor: Cheque cashing, bill payments, money orders, prepaid debit cards for online shopping. Right off the bat, someone without access to a bank account will pay extra for the means to order anything online.

Another consideration is of individual situations. Do we need Medicare for All? Or, is there need for people in all kinds of situations to generate their own ideas or utilize other methods to bring their life costs closer to their revenues? Medicals are not the only life costs. They are one piece of the individual puzzle.

I surmise that if enough people work together to help reduce life costs via methods that are more of ingenuity than of government assistance, the overall numbers presented for bona fide need will be reduced. These lower numbers will not eliminate all need for government services. I believe this and would never advocate for the permanent removal of all government assistance. However, the likely reductions will reduce the amount of government funds and involvement in some lives.

This reduction is preferable to a heavy mantle of structured and regulated living that would be everyone's lot in life if the US descended into a Medicare for All sort of system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2019 12:05AM by Shop-et-al.

I have to add to my above post...talking about the cost of food, I make a super healthy soup that cost three bucks for a huge pot, is pure and delicious, lentils/carrots and a potato. I also bought a package of chicken breasts for $3.48 (Wed. thru Sunday sale), five huge breasts, can last a couple weeks. I just think 50% of people want FF or stuff not healthy. Many poor Mother's raising children make it work by cooking fresh food by hand, never eating packaged foods. I'm not putting myself in this situation, because I eat steak, shrimp, and lobster as well, I'm just saying, it can be done.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2019 01:08AM by Irene_L.A..