So many protests, violence and looting here. We have not opened yet but my physical return to work is imminent. DH will finish online. DDs jobs will continue online until mid July. My baby's summer internship was cancelled but will be held online for 3 weeks at 2X the original salary.
Imposed curfews today have been ignored albeit peaceful and in the news. Helicopters overhead all day. Strange, new world. Sad.

@Madetoshop wrote:

We have not opened yet but my physical return to work is imminent.

That's been my personal biggest worry. Just as states have begun reopening, so many mass gatherings have taken place. If newly infected protesters go back to work or are customers of newly opened places, I really worry about a new wave of the coronavirus.

I wish states would just push back their re-openings. NY is not going to do so from the rhetoric I've heard. Lots of stores in many cities need to rebuild and restock anyways. Why not just delay things to allow for that and also give possibly newly infected people a chance to stay away from the public?

I'm going to write to my local leaders or do what I can to ask for this.

Protestors were here. I stayed at home, had no inkling, and wouldn't have stopped what I was doing for that. How annoying that just after tourist season was cancelled here, the protestors marched in and probably destroyed our state's intention and need for health. When will people learn!? Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

The main errand I was going to do today is inside a mall that is closed. Their official position is that it's due to some nearby civil unrest, but I wonder how much is really no customers coming to shop.

@KathyG wrote:

I wonder how much is really no customers coming to shop.

You hit the nail on the head, KathyG! In all of the zeal to "re-open the economy," few people stopped to realize that John & Jane Q. Public would not have discretionary funds, making the opening of many retail businesses--especially those in enclosed malls--an exercise in futility at this time.

It seems to me that these protestors and looters are in violation of the decrees that have been handed down and heavily enforced against people who dared engage in lawful commerce, religious observance, freedom of association, and other protected rights. I wonder when these governors and mayors will decide to apply the law evenly. I'm guessing never.

Has anyone gone to Costco recently? My mom is venturing out after I've asked her to go to other stores with curbside. She's refused and says Costco has things cheaper and that she wants.

@panama18 wrote:

It seems to me that these protestors and looters are in violation of the decrees that have been handed down and heavily enforced against people who dared engage in lawful commerce, religious observance, freedom of association, and other protected rights. I wonder when these governors and mayors will decide to apply the law evenly. I'm guessing never.

I wonder when will Qualified Immunity, a PRIVILEGE that genuinely appears to be constantly abused by our officers without proper punishment, finally be reviewed and change can finally happen. The protesting and looting is temporary, but our officers are not. It's bothersome that so much focus is on the minority and temporary chaos, when the purpose of the PROTESTORS (keyword; I am not lumping protestors and looters as one that sounds like you are) is to push for reform and change of a broken system that's been broken our entire lives.

What's a possible example of abuse beyond just the recent Mr. Floyd incident? In Kentucky on Monday 6/1, just two days ago, the KPD shot and killed a man name Mr. David McAtee. Here's the catch, the officers conveniently had their body cams turned off, NO FIREARM RECOVERED, surrounding security footage has no sound AND no sign of firearms on the man killed aside from kitchen utensils, and currently the only claim that the man had a gun was from the word of our officers. What's the punishment right now? The police chief is fired. The officers involved in the shooting are on paid leave. Meanwhile, a man who may or may not be innocent was shot and killed, even though there is suggestive evidence that the officers DID NOT clearly identify a shooter.... Unless of course, we can merely trust their word despite the other red flags (i.e. body cams turned off, no firearm recovered, no other video evidence of a firearm on the victim, etc.)....

Sorry, but what's triggering me is the focus on protestors and somehow lumping them all as bad people. The majority of protesting HAS been peaceful, such as the recent massive protests here in downtown Denver this week. It's been a massive improvement from the vandalism and other issues where rioters created chaos amongst the peaceful protestors.

@Tarantado wrote:

The protesting and looting is temporary, but our officers are not. It's bothersome that so much focus is on the minority and temporary chaos, when the purpose of the PROTESTORS (keyword; I am not lumping protestors and looters as one that sounds like you are) is to push for reform and change of a broken system that's been broken our entire lives.

I think it's an important distinction to separate the peaceful protestors from the destructive ones. I regret that my own language failed to do that previously and have since changed. In defense of Panama, there is no mention of looting in it the quoted post.

Rather, the focus was on the violation of mass gathering bans that many states have. I read that to be related to protecting public health from the spread of COVID-19. Panama never referenced looting or violence, nor did the post mention minorities.

My worry (and possibly others) is that the "temporary chaos" will lead to more COVID-19 infections, hospitalizations, and deaths. We've already buried one family member and every single one of my healthcare worker family members in New York were infected. They said it was inevitable working with patients. There is a killer pandemic going on and that's been my objection to the mass rallies during this time.

I don't think the peaceful protestors are intentionally trying to endanger others by mass gathering. I think they probably just haven't thought about the risks it poses. Most are young and likely won't be affected in a severe way.

I say this with full support of those wanting police justice. I agree that we have systemic and police cultural issues that are corrupt, callous, and deadly. I've personally chosen to show my support via stay-at-home means. For those who can give money, that is one avenue. For those who cannot, there are many things that can still be done to fight for this cause. The USA Today article I posted has some suggestions.

There are a lot of injustices and sufferings happening right now. I hope being "sensitive" to one type does not come across as being indifferent to the others.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2020 07:13PM by shoptastic.

This is too important to overlook: many protestors intend only to express themselves in a legal way. They give a great big huge dammmn and I love them for being people who care about important topics. But think about something else: Their numbers provide a shield for those relative few who want to pillage, loot, burn, maim, kill, and otherwise destroy. For this round of protests, they all are on the main arteries (pun intended, even though there is no agreement that is the correct joke and punchline) and near many loot-able places.

The rioters do not reflect the fact that many people care about black lives and other lives. In my world, all lives matter. But that might just be me. Many of us do not need to have violence foisted upon us in order to jar us into caring. We already care about these things, including how to protect peaceful protest from infiltration by rioters and the like.

Would reduction of protests result in reduction of opportunistic crime that occurs when some people co-opt peaceful protests?

There are other things to do which might bring more people into awareness and necessary change.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2020 07:16PM by Shop-et-al.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Would reduction of protests result in reduction of opportunistic crime that occurs when some people co-opt peaceful protests?

Again, "opportunistic crime" appears to be the focus isn't of the bigger picture: Abuse of Power with no reform to actively address the systematic problem we have.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

There are other things to do which might bring more people into awareness and necessary change.

Such as........ When Colin Kaepernick's kneeling protest came about, which was peaceful as can be to bring awareness of unfair, racial discrimination and police brutality not receiving proper punishment, this message got diverted by many and focused on "offending the flag" instead of the actual message of the peaceful protest. This is the tiresome topic that's been going on my entire life. Still no change. Those in Power still have special privileges; which I personally have no problem with, given that the Power is used ethically and morally. What the problem is that when the special privileges (a doctrine we officially call Qualified Immunity) is abused, there is a lack of justice to proper punish. And more and more of these situations are continuing to go viral, not to say it's a sudden spike of occurrences suddenly happening as a result of isolated incidents, but the fact that this is ALWAYS been going on and again, with no changes.

@shoptastic wrote:

I think it's an important distinction to separate the peaceful protestors from the destructive ones. I regret that my own language failed to do that previously and have since changed. In defense of Panama, there is no mention of looting in it the quoted post.

Rather, the focus was on the violation of mass gathering bans that many states have. I read that to be related to protecting public health from the spread of COVID-19. Panama never referenced looting or violence, nor did the post mention minorities.

My worry (and possibly others) is that the "temporary chaos" will lead to more COVID-19 infections, hospitalizations, and deaths. We've already buried one family member and every single one of my healthcare worker family members in New York were infected. They said it was inevitable working with patients. There is a killer pandemic going on and that's been my objection to the mass rallies during this time.

I don't think the peaceful protestors are intentionally trying to endanger others by mass gathering. I think they probably just haven't thought about the risks it poses. Most are young and likely won't be affected in a severe way.

I say this with full support of those wanting police justice. I agree that we have systemic and police cultural issues that are corrupt, callous, and deadly. I've personally chosen to show my support via stay-at-home means. For those who can give money, that is one avenue. For those who cannot, there are many things that can still be done to fight for this cause. The USA Today article I posted has some suggestions.

There are a lot of injustices and sufferings happening right now. I hope being "sensitive" to one type does not come across as being indifferent to the others.

I appreciate diving into the topic like this. If you read closely on not just responses on this topic here, but just everywhere in general, acknowledging an issue (police brutality and unfair racial bias), then diverting it away from focus ("but it's causing riots and opportunistic crime" ) is a reason why the road to resolution never gets anywhere. None of us here I'm certain promote or are justifying the looting and vandalism going on, as the reality is, the majority of protests ARE peaceful, as much as it's hard for people to believe that. Instead of focusing on the minority, where these criminals will always be criminals to begin with; they will always take advantage of opportunistic crime with or without the protests, the focus should be on a system that's set up to be abused by those in Power. It affects all of us, and affects those with Afrocentric physical features / Blacks EVEN worse simply due to unfair bias that trickles to those in power and abuse their power.

But yes, I do wholeheartedly acknowledge a potential outbreak from COVID19. So the next month or so will be interesting to see how this actually does pan out when it comes to the pandemic.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2020 07:40PM by Tarantado.

@shoptastic wrote:

There are a lot of injustices and sufferings happening right now. I hope being "sensitive" to one type does not come across as being indifferent to the others.

Let me clarify and elaborate on this last part. I think sometimes when we (as humans) passionately decry or stand up for something, but don't show explicit/immediate/equal sensitivity to another issue, that can be viewed as not caring about those other issues. That could be true - it's a person-to-person thing - but, in general, I think it's not a good idea to make that assumption.

I've done it before and people have done it to me and it's been inaccurate and hurtful when assumed.

I care about police brutality and abuse. I cannot say that I've experienced it in the same way as others and it may not be front and center for me, but as a human being, I think there are universal notions of right and wrong. There was no doubt that what happened to George Floyd was a sickening tragedy and I'm disturbed how common this is amongst police (and even prison guards from stories I have heard). I donate in ways that I personally can.

I think my focus on the virus is that I've seen family members affected by it very early on. My being emotional and sensitive about it comes from seeing it affect me in very painful ways. I tried to point out that there are dangers to mass gatherings during this time (despite supporting the cause behind the Floyd rallies) and that it was not right to do this during this very specific time (any other time, I would have been down with it). I hope that is not taken as me being indifferent to police injustice issues - just as perhaps I should not assume the protestors want to intentionally spread COVID and/or do not care about it. As I said, I don't think they intentionally want to cause more infections and health issues. That would seem ludicrous - especially, as minority communities have been disproportionately affected from the virus. They may believe they can act responsibly with mask wearing, while still gathering for a just cause that is also equally important in their eyes. I don't blame the peaceful protestor's intentions and do not think they are indifferent to the virus. I merely think the best way to deal with this is to fight from home. THIS TIME. All other times (no virus), go and safely take to the streets!! I'm 1 million% in favor of that all other times. (I do disagree, however, with blocking freeeways and roads, as happened in my city, but that is because people in medical distress can be blocked.***)

To say something about the business destruction, I know BLM and other peaceful protestors have nothing to do with this. In fact, I've seen them denounce it and in my city are working to help local businesses recover. It's definitely this smaller group of paid agitators (I've seen multiple stories about this and it is very disturbing) and maybe some opportunistic and angry people doing the wrong thing. Sometimes we think of business people as being rich and oppressors. They may (or may not) have insurance to make them whole from the damage and looting. But, it deeply affects their immediate livelihood. Most small businesses have just a month or so worth of cash and many (like my parents) spent over a decade saving up money before they were able to open their own small business. We know of many people in this community who were just ordinary wage workers and spent years or decades working and saving to open up a business of their dreams. For some, it took until they were 40 or 50 years in age to fulfill that dream. It was a decades' long dream to go out on their own and be their own boss and offer a service to others. Sometimes you hear people say casually that their life's dream was destroyed and you think maybe it's just temporary and there's insurance to cover them. This is not the case always, but it's especially not the case in a pandemic and recession crisis like the one we're currently having. Something like 35% of small business owners have had to use their own savings (no thanks to the inadequate and hole-ridden PPP program) to patch the financial holes in the businesses to keep afloat. They are already without customers, without PPP grants, and as a last ditch effort to keep alive their means of living, they're putting their own savings into their companies to keep that dream alive. If they go under, they'll have lost their livelihoods, years of investments, and lost jobs for their workers. We were just starting to reopen. Hoping COVID's curve was flattening and hoping these businesses could return to enough capacity to keep afloat.

Many people are suffering. This is all extremely horrible. I hope I am not taken as indifferent to the protestors' cause, when I voice concern about increasing infections and ruined businesses from these rallies.

When any human suffers. All humans have to carry that burden. I know the limitations of my own experiences and sensitivities. We all have those limitations. But, let's try to not assume indifference of others when we may be expressing our own sensitivities.

***This story was of rioters setting on fire buildings and then "protestors" (they may have been more of the rioting type and not "real protestors" ) blocking a fire rescue vehicle from getting to a burning house with a child in it. BLM and other protest groups have stopped traffic before and this is something I think can be changed. We can support their cause, but find wise and safe ways of doing it - just making sure to not block traffic and not mass rally during COVID.

[www.youtube.com]

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2020 08:11PM by shoptastic.

I've been in Costco almost every week since the shutdown occurred...most recently this morning. From the start they did the best job of managing social distancing of any store I've seen. In my area you cannot enter unless you're wearing a mask, the produce room aisle has been designated as one-way, each cashier and the person who checks the receipt on the way out has a plexiglass shield.

@shoptastic wrote:

Has anyone gone to Costco recently? My mom is venturing out after I've asked her to go to other stores with curbside. She's refused and says Costco has things cheaper and that she wants.

I heard this afternoon that the mall I mentioned is now going to be closed through June 6th. Although it's the one preferred for demonstrations I have to wonder if they're shooting themselves in the foot by keeping it closed, and the lack of foot traffic will become a self-fulfilling prophesy when things settle down.

@Opanel wrote:

@KathyG wrote:

I wonder how much is really no customers coming to shop.

You hit the nail on the head, KathyG! In all of the zeal to "re-open the economy," few people stopped to realize that John & Jane Q. Public would not have discretionary funds, making the opening of many retail businesses--especially those in enclosed malls--an exercise in futility at this time.

No, I don't lump them together, which is why I mentioned them separately. As for the rest, I largely agree with you. It is an abuse of authority problem.

@Tarantado wrote:

I am not lumping protestors and looters as one that sounds like you are) is to push for reform and change of a broken system that's been broken our entire lives.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

There are other things to do which might bring more people into awareness and necessary change.

I guess one interesting thing is that as a secret shopper, I've learned the power of secretly recording people.

I recently saw a quote from Will Smith that went something like: "Cops haven't been killing black people more. We've just been recording it more." (rough paraphrase)

I recently gave my sister and mother a secret audio recorder. I've bought several for ms-ing. Had extras. They found it interesting. When you see a doctor, talk to a bill collector by phone, go for a job interview, etc., sometimes having a recorder can be useful if there is abuse or discrimination.

Make sure you know your state laws and that you can record like this. But, if you can do it without consent of the other party, sometimes it can help you. Not just with racism. With any type of unfair treatment. I've had doctors seem very rude and possibly give me subpar treatment. I wish I had recorded those situations. I shouldn't have had to pay maybe in one situation, as a doctor practically insulted/made fun of me and my condition.

I've already made my position known on the Floyd protests. I know the protesters mean well and there is a lot of hurt. I just don't think this is the time to do the physical rallies (home/online is better). But, in practical everyday life, having a recording device can be a game-changer. Capture it and share it with others if there is abuse.

@KathyG wrote:

I've been in Costco almost every week since the shutdown occurred...most recently this morning. From the start they did the best job of managing social distancing of any store I've seen. In my area you cannot enter unless you're wearing a mask, the produce room aisle has been designated as one-way, each cashier and the person who checks the receipt on the way out has a plexiglass shield.

Ohhh! Plexiglass shield is perfect! This is very good to know.

@KathyG wrote:

I've been in Costco almost every week

I know there are geographic/store diffs., but have you found particular times or days to be less crowded? Thanks.

An associate told my husband the WORST time to go is during the Senior Citizen's hour. Generally I've found that mid-afternoon on weekdays, after the lunch crowd leaves, seems to be the best.

@shoptastic wrote:

@KathyG wrote:

I've been in Costco almost every week

I know there are geographic/store diffs., but have you found particular times or days to be less crowded? Thanks.

@shoptastic: I intensely dislike the spying aspect of recording people. It stinks. We should have learned from history, but here we are, acting like the Gestapo.

It would be better if people could commune with each other without killing each other, wanting to kill each other, or wanting to share someone else's privacy (and sometimes even their privates) with the rest of the world. What has happened to us? We have gone mad. Mad, I say, MAAAAAADDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!

This sort of social sickness is at least as bad as the flus and the plagues...

... which is leading me back to the topic.

Today's re-opening news was that I picked up a shop and learned something about a familiar business. It has been re-opened for a few days and is now ready to be shopped. This prompted me to wonder: Why do some businesses have more stringent entrance requirements (masks; masks and gloves; check your gloves for rips and tears; take your temperature with contact-less thermometer; glare and point until you notice the proferred hand sanitizer, etc.) than others do?

We had intended to go to a restaurant on our own dime, just to try it. We postponed this because we needed to do other things. But we are willing. Especially am I willing to crunch numbers and find out if I can afford a fee + large reimbursement restaurant shop. *scurries away to twist and warp budget into desired shape*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 12:00AM by Shop-et-al.

Idaho had their phase 3 opening on Sat. 5/30, which included bars. The news showed a bar in downtown Boise, the people were not doing social distancing or wearing masks. They were packed in the bar like sardines.
I went to a grocery store this morning, first time in a while as I've been using the curbside pickups. Had to pickup prescriptions. The store has signs posted all over to stay 6' feet apart and squares on floor to stand on while in line. I was in the produce section and people were standing right on top of each other. I stood back and waited a couple of times to get items I wanted, and the next thing someone would walk right next to me. About 85% of the people in the store weren't wearing masks.
After today I am going back to curbside pickup for my stuff.

@sueac101 wrote:

Idaho had their phase 3 opening on Sat. 5/30, which included bars. The news showed a bar in downtown Boise, the people were not doing social distancing or wearing masks. They were packed in the bar like sardines.
I went to a grocery store this morning, first time in a while as I've been using the curbside pickups. Had to pickup prescriptions. The store has signs posted all over to stay 6' feet apart and squares on floor to stand on while in line. I was in the produce section and people were standing right on top of each other. I stood back and waited a couple of times to get items I wanted, and the next thing someone would walk right next to me. About 85% of the people in the store weren't wearing masks.
After today I am going back to curbside pickup for my stuff.

Thanks for sharing, sueac101. ....more protesters were wearing masks than that!!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 01:44AM by shoptastic.

@KathyG wrote:

An associate told my husband the WORST time to go is during the Senior Citizen's hour. Generally I've found that mid-afternoon on weekdays, after the lunch crowd leaves, seems to be the best.

I am logging this intelligence report. It confirms what a friend to us as well. She said that mornings during senior hours are the worst, because they only let a few in and there is a huge line of seniors trying to get in. They all show up waiting. And ironically it's more crowded than mid-afternoon/lunch-ish.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

@shoptastic: I intensely dislike the spying aspect of recording people. It stinks. We should have learned from history, but here we are, acting like the Gestapo.

No. No. You misunderstand. It's not spying, b/c I'm in on the conversation. I'm a party to it, so it's more like documenting.

To me, spying is more like you're recording others without them knowing, where you're not a party to things.

Are you saying this is participant research? Again, pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftt. This is medical and personal. It should be off limits!

@sestrahelena wrote:

And why was that cop's hand in his pocket? FOR SO LONG? What was going on in there? That was just too strange. Maybe if he had used his hands he would not have needed the knee-in-the-neck method?

So....I watched the video in full this time.

I realized I had only seen an edited version before and I just watched it. The much longer version is even harder to watch. It's so disturbing what happened. I see what you mean about the hands. That was very odd. The other officer Tou (something...) was horrible as well. He never responded to bystanders asking him to simply check Floyd's pulse. When everyone there is yelling for several minutes straight (I hadn't seen/heard that the first time - when I first watched, Floyd was still talking and I found it hard to continue) that he's not moving and to check his vitals, I couldn't believe neither cop in the frame (don't know what the other two were doing) just didn't care.

Truly, truly scary. Hard to watch for anyone who actually watched the full version with original audio. The version I watched was edited with people talking over and describing things. After seeing the original/full, I see the fury better now.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Are you saying this is participant research? Again, pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftt. This is medical and personal. It should be off limits!

I meant with recording racism/abuse/discrimination. Shopetal.

That wasn't in reference to the contact tracking job thread. I just meant that people can consider having a recorder with them in various settings. Phones can be helpful as a bystander. I fear if you record someone to their face (esp. a cop), they might take it from you in a direct interaction. Usually, it's a bystander who records. A hidden audio recorder, such as those used by shoppers, can give you a different, more hidden option.

Again, Pffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

Leave the recordings alone and help someone, change something in your own life, or practice social distancing by being at least six feet away from others physically and away from them forever with your spyware I mean recording devices.

Remember that everything you record is subject to interpretation. Unrelated information could be included. Real people could be hurt! This could cause more harm than good.

Even if you are not a doctor, do no harm.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 05:01PM by Shop-et-al.

How absurd this whole thing has become. The stated, desired change demands have been satisfied. End of current need. Someone could declare a success. This is the signal to end the protests and protect against the possibility that masses of people will become inured to the messages and the entire concept of protesting. This would be a sensible tactic.But the protestors are still going. They even came here! Mind you, this is small town America and too wee to provide background scenery for the exclusives and their staged hate productions. (If they want to be on tv, a crew has to travel from afar to accommodate them. They actually are virulent, and there is no need to help them to go virtually viral by posting personally obtained recordings.) Nonetheless, several incidents of property damage and extreme hate messages were foisted onto my little part of the world. Think the thugs have moved on in search of more square footage to deface and more people to attempt to intimidate or enlist. I hope so.

And the person who thought it was a good idea to cause more problems than they solve and inveigle others to be complicit should be... well... someone will think of an appropriate consequence for that.

Meanwhile, I have to think of something to make for lunch.