So should we shut down all over again?

Frankly, I have no idea if we should shut down or not. But it isn't looking good.

I dunno if we should shut down completely. The practically incalculable financial fallout from that and the number of years to a semblance of the beginnings of a financial recovery from it is terrifying!

Meanwhile, California's governor is re-shutting down some activities and places. I hope this will be enough for California. I need to find some news about what other places are doing now.

For health and safety we should shut down, but this time without loopholes and for a solid 3 weeks. Establish a 711 number you can call for an emergency--AC went out, plumbing broke and won't shut off, ran out of food--because you are NOT ALLOWED out unless you are a state contracted provider in full PPE.

If we can't agree even to wearing masks, we won't get compliance with a shut down and there is not the political will to do squat. We need a shut down to END COVID, not just flatten the curve. Iceland did it, but they are an island with border control at the airports.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

The practically incalculable financial fallout from that and the number of years to a semblance of the beginnings of a financial recovery from it is terrifying!

The problem is the financial recovery is terrifying in both circumstances. In the case of Sweden, which decided to "save their economy" instead of worrying about Covid deaths, their economy has shrunk just as badly as their neighbors' who had stricter shut downs but resulted in 10x the deaths. In the case of New Zealand, which shut literally everything down, their economy shrunk about 20%, which is certainly higher than anyone else's (most are in the low teens), but they are Covid free and their economy has already started growing. Sure they had a huge shrink but their economy will grow for 6-8 months before anyone else's does. They'll be way ahead of the curve on Jan 1.

I don't support another shutdown because I don't think shutting down is the answer in itself. And our politicians can't or won't enforce it or enforce it selectively. Despite a state shutdown, the Chicago mayor had her hair cut at a salon and defended it by saying she believed the shutdown was necessary for the public but it didn't apply to her because "I'm the face of the city and I needed a haircut." The governor in California recently shut down bars, restaurants and wineries - and then news reports showed his own winery was still open. In New York, the mayor announced a shutdown, banning large groups, closing churches, but allowed large protests to continue, and he and his wife joined the large groups of protesters.

Here in my city, a teenage party involved THREE HUNDRED teenagers who must now be quarantined because 4 of the teens had corona symptoms and had been tested but had not yet received their results when they attended the party. And their parents allowed them to go to the party! All 4 tests came back positive the day after the party. When interviewed and asked why he allowed his daughter to attend a big party knowing she had corona symptoms and was waiting for the results of a corona test, one father laughed and said "Well, either she had it or she didn't. Making her stay home wouldn't keep her from having it. No point in punishing her." The interviewer pointed out that "..might have kept someone else's child from being infected..." Dad just shrugged.

Iceland was very successful, but they never actually imposed a complete shutdown. They stopped the flow of people into the country. Because they eliminated tourists, many of their businesses were closed because it wasn't financially feasible for their owners to remain open. Restaurants and shops have been encouraged to social distance but were not closed. Masks have not been mandated or even strongly encouraged. They limited large gatherings and closed high schools and colleges, although primary schools and daycare centers stayed open. They apparently concentrated on contract-tracing and quarantine. The big difference seems to have been strictly limiting those who entered the country and social responsibility. Interesting reading about how Iceland beat the corona: [www.newyorker.com]

Iceland also was lucky enough that they had few cases to begin with. Shutting down the borders and implementing contact tracing worked for them. But much like idiotic people in this country won't wear a mask or allow a shut down, they also won't allow contact tracing. The US will go under because people here are so completely stupid. I for one will be moving the day I am able to.

We need to either shut down or accept the fact that we will allow vulnerable populations to die based strictly on financial motives. I'm not going to get into a huge debate about this, but about 70% of our national expenditures go to (you should excuse the expression) defense. Diverting some of that money to stimulus and unemployment would go a long, long way to stabilizing our economy while allowing for a few weeks of nearly complete shut down.

One of the strongest responses you can have is teacher strikes. They are large in number and powerful.

In recent days/weeks/months, I've seen articles of teachers refusing to return and thinking of organizing strikes.

The California Teacher's Union is pressing for safety before reopening and San Jose teachers are refusing to return: [www.nbcbayarea.com]

Another shutdown will be useless if people don't do what they are supposed to do.

MUST READ:
[www.cnbc.com]
[www.cnn.com]

Go Governor Northam! [www.13newsnow.com]

@ wrote:

Virginia is continuing in Phase 3 but during a Tuesday briefing, Governor Ralph Northam said they will bring down the hammer when it comes to enforcing COVID-19 restrictions.

Northam said The Virginia Department of Health is deploying 100 health officials out to ramp up enforcement.

"If it's a situation where there are some egregious violations occurring, that could very well be considered a health hazard, that may lead to temporary permit suspension on the spot,” Grefe said.

More of this across the U.S. please!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2020 04:51AM by shoptastic.

In Idaho most of the state is in stage 4, which means 99% of businesses are open. In Ada county which is the largest county in the state and main city is Boise, the governor moved it back to stage 3 which is all bars ,nightclubs had to close back down, no groups of people over 50. The first weekend that they allowed bars to reopen several days later it was reported that 6 people had been to 10 bars in downtown Boise and that they all had tested positive for the virus. The city of Boise on July 4 mandated that you have to wear a mask in the city limits. Now Ada county as of 7/15 has mandated that you must wear a mask in where in the county. Canyon county which is next to Ada is deciding today about mandating mask wearing.
After the state reopened to stage 4 covid-19 reports went from 15-20 people a day up to 40-50 a day and since July it went from 75-80 a day up to as of today 425 people.
The people here have gone back to their old ways, no distancing, no wearing masks, etc. It is if they think the virus has just went away.
When I have to be out I wear a mask and stay as far away from people as I can. Soon as I get back in the car I use hand santizer and as soon as I'm home I wash my hands and spray Lysol on the door knobs and keys that I have touched.

I think it is appropriate for individual places to demand masks and permit exceptions if that is necessary. But this gives us another thing that we are supposed to do. We are supposed to remember that wearing a mask might be impossible for others. This is probably rare, but still. I hope that the mask bandwagon will not now turn on people who cannot comply...

@HonnyBrown wrote:

Another shutdown will be useless if people don't do what they are supposed to do.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2020 01:36AM by Shop-et-al.

Because some political 'leaders' and regular folks don't do what we are supposed to do, the list of businesses requiring masks is growing. WalMart, Costco, Kroger, Starbucks, Kohls, CVS, Target, BestBuy, Publix . . .

@Shop-et-al wrote:

permit exceptions if that is necessary

People who need exceptions are the very people who are most at risk.....

Interesting COVID conversation with my doc yesterday. He is tired of wearing a mask 40+ hours a week at the office and then in his 'real life' as well. It is not something you get used to and it has turned us all into mouth breathers, but he feels strongly that it has been worth it in terms of saving lives--including his own as he is in his 70s as well. He is feeling a little smug because although he has had a number of his patients get COVID, he has lost none to COVID, including his most vulnerable. He attributes this to insisting his patients get their annual flu shots and with his older and vulnerable patients, making sure that their pneumonia shots are up to date.

There are crazier and crazier mask fight stories. Shootings. Stabbings. Guns being pulled.

Is the United States the only nation on Earth where these fights are happening and so many citizens are uncooperative?

We have 141,000+ virus deaths and will be at 150,000 by next week. Still no national mask mandate. Instead, Americans feel their freedoms are so threatened they have to shoot, stab, and punch others who ask them to wear a mask (even in places where the business mandates it).

Maybe, just maybe, they have gone a little stir crazy from being forced to stay at home...

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Maybe, just maybe, they have gone a little stir crazy from being forced to stay at home...

Many other countries imposed much stricter lock downs than anywhere in the US and they haven't had these problems.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2020 09:44PM by bgriffin.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Maybe, just maybe, they have gone a little stir crazy from being forced to stay at home...

Any stories of Australians, Singaporeans, Germans, South Koreans, etc. shooting, stabbing, and punching each other over mask wearing?

So what do you think is the explanation?

The United States was founded by strong, smart people who wanted to ensure freedoms. They exchanged fierce, heated words. As the story goes, there was a fateful duel... Blam! I realize that today we are not as eloquent, generally. as the founders. The visible portion of our national complexion has changed, too. But the desire for freedom is still here. People who want freedom, want freedom.

Are these punchers, shooters, and stabbers people staging some sort of revolution? After all, they are free to care less than we do or care not at all about their possible role in covid, including the use/non-use of masks and other behaviors and guidelines.

You care. I care. We use masks, distance ourselves, and practice other measures regarding covid.

We are not free to force people to submit to our personal idea of what caring looks like. We can do what we can to reduce risk.

As a matter of fact, The Guardian had a piece on July 01, 2020 regarding South Korea.


"South Korea: incidents of Covid-19 'mask rage' flare as summer heats up

Hot weather is making mask wearing increasingly uncomfortable, prompting some people to refuse face coverings in defiance of government advice"

These are the title and subtitle of the article at [www.theguardian.com]

@shoptastic wrote:

@Shop-et-al wrote:

Maybe, just maybe, they have gone a little stir crazy from being forced to stay at home...

Any stories of Australians, Singaporeans, Germans, South Koreans, etc. shooting, stabbing, and punching each other over mask wearing?

If I am incapable of wearing a mask, I will not go out in public. No ifs, ands or buts.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

I think it is appropriate for individual places to demand masks and permit exceptions if that is necessary. But this gives us another thing that we are supposed to do. We are supposed to remember that wearing a mask might be impossible for others. This is probably rare, but still. I hope that the mask bandwagon will not now turn on people who cannot comply...

@HonnyBrown wrote:

Another shutdown will be useless if people don't do what they are supposed to do.

What we need is a helmet-like thing that will go over the entire head and will have a battery that is sucking in air through a filter by a fan. There will also be an electronic communicator so that you can talk with someone without having to shout.

2stepps, that is very similar to what the nurses and medical staff wear when tending to COVID patients, minus the electronic communications. They can speak and be heard okay. If they can deal with that for 8-12 hours, surely the rest of us can be compliant and wear masks in public and at work. I would not go out in public if I potentially had chicken pox or measles or one of the other contagious diseases. People who refuse to mask are potentially spreading this virus throughout their contacts. It really ticks me off.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2020 01:43AM by Sandy Shopper.

To a great extent it speaks to the heterogeneity of our society. We have those who feel 'entitled' to not wear masks and we have those so disenfranchised that they don't care to participate. It annoys me that POTUS has gotten many around him ill with COVID because job security says you don't wear a mask around him. Yet I get a certain sick glee when a vocally anti-mask in a position of power and with the education to know better catches COVID. While like Sandy Shopper I would not go out in public at all (except directly to and from medical treatment) if I had something infectious, I know that many people do not see it that way and with COVID many may be infected and infectious without knowing it, so I wear a mask for my own safety and the safety of my family. I certainly have little respect for those who don't care enough about themselves or others to mask up.

I understand the reluctance, the anger at being told what to do, where to go, what to wear, I'm remembering when seat belts were required. My Dad was initially belligerent. With time, he adjusted to wearing a seat belt. He had no problem with 'No shirt, no shoes, no service'. He had no problem with public spaces going smoke free. Not everyone did, but it became an acceptable part of daily life.

Present day, my husband is high risk. Regardless of what type of mask, wearing one would impair his ability to breathe. I take every precaution when going out is necessary. If I weren't here, everything necessary could be ordered and delivered to our home. We make sure that our home is his safe place. Even at the heart-rending expense of distancing from our grown children.

The times are dire. A staggering 75,000+ Americans contracted Covid today. This number is going to rise. We the people, are our best chance at surviving this. No whining.

We, the people, have been contracting diseases for centuries. Some have survived.


Calling people whiners is a loser's game. We, the people, can be better than that.

Be the example, not the name-caller.

Yes, mother