You do understand that Trump’s interference with the markets is the antithesis of capitalism?

@cynthamarieh wrote:

I dont understand folks who want socialism. Look it up in the history books. It has NEVER worked. Go live in a socialist country for a while and see for yourself. Trump 2020! Yay capitalism!

@Irene_L.A. wrote:

Socialism for Bernie and most Democrats pertaining to health means "one for all, and all for one" with everyone having the same health care, which I am opposed to...call it what you will, it is levels down from what I now have, why should those with good Ins. want to switch, and why make anyone switch, give it to those that have no Ins.

I think you either misunderstand or are not aware of what Bernie wants. He doesn't want to take away your health care or health care plan. He doesn't want to change your health care in any way. He simply wants to give the rest of the country the same health care plan that you have.

You understand that drug lords & ladies and trafficking moguls are expert capitalists, don't you?

@MFJohnston wrote:

You do understand that Trump’s interference with the markets is the antithesis of capitalism?

@cynthamarieh wrote:

I dont understand folks who want socialism. Look it up in the history books. It has NEVER worked. Go live in a socialist country for a while and see for yourself. Trump 2020! Yay capitalism!

@bgriffin wrote:

@Irene_L.A. wrote:

Socialism for Bernie and most Democrats pertaining to health means "one for all, and all for one" with everyone having the same health care, which I am opposed to...call it what you will, it is levels down from what I now have, why should those with good Ins. want to switch, and why make anyone switch, give it to those that have no Ins.

I think you either misunderstand or are not aware of what Bernie wants. He doesn't want to take away your health care or health care plan. He doesn't want to change your health care in any way. He simply wants to give the rest of the country the same health care plan that you have.

I don't think that's what will happen, too expensive and not enough Doctors to go around, unless he also makes education free.

@Irene_L.A. wrote:

I don't think that's what will happen, too expensive and not enough Doctors to go around, unless he also makes education free.

That's exactly what he (and many others) want to happen and the Koch brothers' own think tank research said it'll SAVE money.

Your logic is amazing.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

You understand that drug lords & ladies and trafficking moguls are expert capitalists, don't you?

@MFJohnston wrote:

You do understand that Trump’s interference with the markets is the antithesis of capitalism?

@cynthamarieh wrote:

I dont understand folks who want socialism. Look it up in the history books. It has NEVER worked. Go live in a socialist country for a while and see for yourself. Trump 2020! Yay capitalism!

Well that's a word for it...…..

@bgriffin wrote:

@Irene_L.A. wrote:

Socialism for Bernie and most Democrats pertaining to health means "one for all, and all for one" with everyone having the same health care, which I am opposed to...call it what you will, it is levels down from what I now have, why should those with good Ins. want to switch, and why make anyone switch, give it to those that have no Ins.

I think you either misunderstand or are not aware of what Bernie wants. He doesn't want to take away your health care or health care plan. He doesn't want to change your health care in any way. He simply wants to give the rest of the country the same health care plan that you have.

If the "rest of the country" wants the same healthcare as I have, they should work as hard as I do for it instead of some always on the public doll politician handing it to them paid for by my hard work.

I don't know what healthcare plan you are on - perhaps your experience is different that mine. However, with the exception of this year, my healthcare has gone up every year much faster than my paycheck has increased over the past 20 years. There have been a number of years that I have gotten a "raise" that was more than wiped out than the dollar increase in my health care premiums. My understanding is that this is an issue nationwide.

I am looking for somebody to have a solution to this. As I have said many times, I am not thrilled with the idea of a single-payer system. However, that seems to be the best that the left has to offer. I am really hoping that the GOP comes up with an idea, but they have... nothing except for the mysterious plan D.T. is planning to announced after the 2020 election. I view this as a load of B.S. at this point. If he has something, he should make it happen. Currently the GOP cannot even agree on a proposal among themselves - much less debate something with the Democrats.

And, yes, I work my butt off, too.

@tstewart3 wrote:

If the "rest of the country" wants the same healthcare as I have, they should work as hard as I do for it instead of some always on the public doll politician handing it to them paid for by my hard work.

@heartlandcanuck wrote:

With universal health care, the medical providers are still part of the private sector. Clinics and hospitals, large practice or small, would still be still be businesses. The hospitals that are non-profits would still be so and the ones that are for-profit would still be so. The main difference is that they would no longer need a huge billing department or the need for the regular use of a collection agency because most of their clients would have the same plan and they would know they were getting paid.

I always love a simplistic explanation for a very complicated issue. BOCare was supposed to save each family $2500 a year, everyone could keep their plan and doctor. Just how did THAT work out? BO continued to spew the nonsense, ½ of the country believed him and now we are all stuck with paying more for less.

The biggest problem is believing "what will happen" and not thinking about the issue critically.

PS If you want to see what will happen to our country if we elect a socialist, democratic or not, read Animal Farm or look at Venezuela or Greece.

[www.cnbc.com]
[economics21.org]

@tstewart3
Electing Bernie will not turn us into Venezuela. That's naught but fear-mongering. Consider:
1. Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. He believes in silly things such as democracy.
2. Our legislature will not allow our government to change that dramatically. We are not a autocratic system.
3. Having a single-payer healthcare system would liken us more to Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany and France. I'm not saying we want to go in that direction, but let's at least be honest with the comparisons. Yes, conservative publications push the "Venezuela" argument. However, that's just spin and propaganda.

Personally, I will be voting in the GOP primary in my state. Yes, I will be voting for anybody but Trump. In the general, I will vote for anybody over POTUS - even if it is Sanders.

@bgriffin wrote:

@Irene_L.A. wrote:

I don't think that's what will happen, too expensive and not enough Doctors to go around, unless he also makes education free.

That's exactly what he (and many others) want to happen and the Koch brothers' own think tank research said it'll SAVE money.

Not accoriding to the Washington Post. Democrats seize on cherry-picked claim that ‘Medicare-for-all’ would save $2 trillion
[www.washingtonpost.com]

I didn't read the whole article cause I got bored and I'm really busy but it seems to me the WaPo article is focusing on government spending. The study I saw included private medical spending as well. IE If the government spends 10 Billion on healthcare and private citizens spend 40 Billion on healthcare and with Medicare for all the government spends 48 Billion then there has been a 2 Billion savings. Yes I made those numbers up, I have no clue what it is. But that's what I understood, and that is not at all what the WaPo article seems to be about. But like I said I didn't read it all.

@tstewart3 wrote:

If the "rest of the country" wants the same healthcare as I have, they should work as hard as I do for it instead of some always on the public doll politician handing it to them paid for by my hard work.

This is the attitude that I think causes a lot of conservatives to be.....for lack of better explanation, conservatives. For some reason there is a belief among people on the right that people who are not successful, who live in poverty, who don't have the things they do, are that way simply because they are lazy. Are there people who fit those categories who are lazy? Well yeah. I know rich lazy people too though. People with this belief see the bad in people instead of the good. When in fact, a majority of people do work hard.

And you know what? If some people continue to be lazy because we try to help the non-lazy ones well fine by me. 10 or 15 years ago a group of people at my brother's church started having cook outs in poor neighborhoods on Saturdays. They had a trailer with a couple of big grills on it and they would park it in some area, cook burgers, and give them to anyone that asked for one. We were talking about it once and I asked him, well how do you make sure the people asking for burgers are the ones that need them? His reply was they didn't know and they didn't care. Their opinion was that they weren't going to let a few people who came and got their free burgers stop them from feeding them to people who needed them. It was counterproductive. I had never really thought of it before, but that's the attitude most conservatives seem to have. They are willing to stop giving to people who truly need things just so they can also stop giving things to people who don't. And to me that's incredibly counterproductive.

.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2019 03:34AM by tstewart3.

I'm sorry? What did I lie about???

No different than your lie about a conservative think tank's conclusions, you have no clue what conservatives think. But at least we do think.

I would suggest that it is folly to paint all "conservatives" and all "liberals" with any one stroke. I have known highly intelligent liberals and highly intelligent conservatives - both well-meaning, well-educated and very thoughtful. I have also known fools of both persuasions. One of the things that separates the "more thoughtful" from the others, in both categories, is the recognition that there are both scholars and fools in both camps. A second is the ability to articulate an argument, rather than spewing vapid insults.

What frustrates me is this: Many folks are lazy in their thinking. As type this, I fondly think of numerous friends and family members. Very few understand fiscal conservatism or liberalism - especially the economic theories behind them. Most define themselves as being in one party or the other on one or two social issues (Think: abortion, gay marriage, immigration). Note than none of these have anything to do with economic policy.

Nothing highlights this more than the election of Donald Trump. 1) He believes in accruing debt - to him it is a "tool." This is the antithesis of fiscal conservatism. 2) He believes in tariffs. This flies in the face of Free Market economics, the basis of all conservatives economic policies. 3) He chooses his "favorite" businesses/industries and bullies others (Amazon, Wind Power, etc.) and tells others how they should behave (Automakers, NFL, etc.). Again, this flies in the face of the de-regulatory philosophies of conservatism.

It annoys you. Therefore, you diss me. That is the apparent logic of your response. Try again.

@MFJohnston wrote:

Your logic is amazing.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

You understand that drug lords & ladies and trafficking moguls are expert capitalists, don't you?

@MFJohnston wrote:

You do understand that Trump’s interference with the markets is the antithesis of capitalism?

Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished. - Lao-Tzu

@Shop-et-al
The issue is simple: your argument made no sense. I responded to a post that supported DT as a capitalist by pointing out that his actions showed he was not much of one. You responded by talking about drug lords as capitalists. Are you equating DT to drug lords? Or, are you saying capitalists are bad? No dis is intended. Your logic simply did not follow.

@MFJohnston wrote:

@Shop-et-al
The issue is simple: your argument made no sense. I responded to a post that supported DT as a capitalist by pointing out that his actions showed he was not much of one. You responded by talking about drug lords as capitalists. Are you equating DT to drug lords? Or, are you saying capitalists are bad? No dis is intended. Your logic simply did not follow.

And I responded to your statement about Donald Trump interfering in the marketplaces. markets which you implied makes him antithetical to capitalism. The domestic and global marketplaces include legal and illegal capitalist ventures. President Trump has taken on various illegal and progressively harmful capitalist ventures, such as those associated with the drug, sex, and trafficking industries. Please try again.

For those wanting a single payer healthcare (Medicare). I was researching moving to Italy and specifically their government run health care system. My eyes opened and I no longer support this - instead let's fix why our healthcare is so expensive (hospitals/specialists/medications)
. If you are interested you can read: [www.justlanded.com]

He is also a socialist?communist and needs to be put out to pasture!

In a nutshell, hospital rooms are wards (many people), elective surgery for say a knee can take months if not years, quality of care is greatly reduced compared to those that also pay for private insurance. So, if everyone gets this mediocre health care and you want something more, you'll pay more - just like in today's world so nothing really changes.

Many countries have healthcare system like Canada, or Demark. I don't see people fleeing to America for healthcare. I do see people going to Mexico for healthcare.

Taking on the drug cartels and other illegal ventures does not define one as a capitalist. Communists, socialists, etc. do that, too. My point still stands: he interferes with all sorts of business and the free market.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

@MFJohnston wrote:

@Shop-et-al
The issue is simple: your argument made no sense. I responded to a post that supported DT as a capitalist by pointing out that his actions showed he was not much of one. You responded by talking about drug lords as capitalists. Are you equating DT to drug lords? Or, are you saying capitalists are bad? No dis is intended. Your logic simply did not follow.

And I responded to your statement about Donald Trump interfering in the marketplaces. markets which you implied makes him antithetical to capitalism. The domestic and global marketplaces include legal and illegal capitalist ventures. President Trump has taken on various illegal and progressively harmful capitalist ventures, such as those associated with the drug, sex, and trafficking industries. Please try again.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2019 07:01PM by MFJohnston.

Allowing anyone to come have a burger, without making someone prove the financial need takes out the stigma. The need is not always economic, anyway. Maybe they needed to be around people. Maybe they were having a rough time and would otherwise be skipping a meal they had no energy to prepare.

Our school's summer feeding program is like that. Kids from infancy to 18 can come by, M-F, for lunch. No questions asked. They encourage people who would not qualify for free lunch during the year to come, too, so it does not become an easily identifiable group. (During the school year, kids punch in a code for their lunches. How much is withdrawn from their accounts, if any, is not revealed to their peers.) half the kids in our community qualify for free and reduced lunch so it is a good crowd.

@bgriffin wrote:

[ 10 or 15 years ago a group of people at my brother's church started having cook outs in poor neighborhoods on Saturdays. They had a trailer with a couple of big grills on it and they would park it in some area, cook burgers, and give them to anyone that asked for one. We were talking about it once and I asked him, well how do you make sure the people asking for burgers are the ones that need them? His reply was they didn't know and they didn't care. Their opinion was that they weren't going to let a few people who came and got their free burgers stop them from feeding them to people who needed them. It was counterproductive. I had never really thought of it before, but that's the attitude most conservatives seem to have. They are willing to stop giving to people who truly need things just so they can also stop giving things to people who don't. And to me that's incredibly counterproductive.

@MFJohnston: "all"????? Please fescribe how he has interfered with your business.

@MFJohnston: "all"????? Please describe how he has interfered with your business.

@lbtweety47 wrote:

For those wanting a single payer healthcare (Medicare). I was researching moving to Italy and specifically their government run health care system. My eyes opened and I no longer support this - instead let's fix why our healthcare is so expensive (hospitals/specialists/medications)
. If you are interested you can read: [www.justlanded.com]

You are not comparing apples to apples. Italy has government run healthcare. As in your healthcare (hospitals, clinics, pharmacies, etc) are owned by the government. That is not at all, remotely, what medicare for all is about. Medicare for all simply replaces private insurance companies with medicare. The healthcare itself is not socialist. It's still capitalist. Doctors are free to work or setup clinics wherever they want. They can hire who they want and pay them what they want. Hospitals can still operate where they want. Everyone continues with the care and care providers they currently use. The only difference is in how the care is paid for. Instead of using Cigna or Aetna or whoever your insurance is medicare. Just like the senior citizens in your life. You are simply eliminating the private insurance companies. The ones that everyone hates. I know literally NO ONE who says holy cow I love my insurance company and how much I have to pay them. Yet when people talk about eliminating the single most undesirable piece of the whole health care system half those people start screaming SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!EVIL!!!!!!!!!! SATAN!!!!!!!!!!