DO you think the shut down was worth it?

@sparklesthekitty wrote:

I'm really curious where you see these anti-maskers when every single place I've gone into has mandated masks.
Premature reopeners? Last time I checked the news, business owners were getting massively fined and jailed for defying state orders. A huge percentage of small businesses are forever gone, and that's without any early reopenings.
Depending on locale, there are many place that don't require masks.

Even those that do can have law enforcement committed to not enforcing them (I posted an article about this re: TX sheriffs refusing to enforce Abbott's late order to require masks), sparklesthekitty.

Then, you have those who break rules anyways by gathering, partying, protesting, rallying, etc. Lots of blame on all sides, imho. Again ---------------> look at Trump. He's out mocking social distancing and masks. His NC rally defied state orders on 50-person gatherings and masks.

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I've seen a few daily briefings from start to finish just so that I could hear and see with my own eyes. It was really annoying when some reporters would pose senseless questions just to off track him. Or do senseless acts, like take off their masks to ask questions, then put them back on. Really?!
Fair enough, but that's still one occurrence. I have yet to see one business not enforcing masks where I'm at. I've seen small businesses pretty much wiped out where I'm at though. And that's very sad.
You disagreed before an explanation was provided. So the second supporting statement is that just now- during the covid-19 pandemic-- people in educational settings are becoming ill. Some teachers have died from covid-19, according to various news reports. If this is true, it is hazardous to health and life itself (dangerous!) to be an educator, While many excellent reasons exist for the concept of education and for fine educational outcomes, it is dangerous to be an educator who is exposed to covid-19 at work and who might be seriously ill or die from that disease directly or indirectly (if other conditions co-exist).


@shoptastic wrote:

@Shop-et-al wrote:

- It is both good and dangerous to educate people.
It's dangerous to educate people? Not sure what that might mean, Shopetal, but I'd disagree.

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus
@sparklesthekitty wrote:

Or do senseless acts, like take off their masks to ask questions, then put them back on. Really?!
There's probably some gamesmanship going on in those situations. EVERYONE who comes near Trump is tested for COVID. It's highly unlikely they have it, so he knows this. They know this.

Imho, they are just playing games when he's doing press conferences asking reporters to take off masks or when reporters do so, etc. They all know they're safe. But, the average American does not have that luxury.
You say that.....But the average American probably doesn't know that the White House staffers and anyone within that vicinity get tested. Just the other day, I had a healthcare professional friend remark, oh my God, he's not wearing a mask during his briefings, he's getting others infected!
@sparklesthekitty wrote:

I've seen small businesses pretty much wiped out where I'm at though. And that's very sad.
A lot of that has to do with PPP not being sufficient (a tiny percentage of applicants got the grants/loans) and also its implementation (which favored banks' wealthier clients). Much more needed to be given to small biz, as large corporations got lion's share of CARES bailout money.

You should stop now and read older threads of what's already been discussed on the forum re: all of this. We've actually talked about this already months ago.

I think many small biz would have gone under naturally with or without a lockdown. People would have naturally stopped going to many of these places once COVID went viral and they started seeing people around them get sick, hospitalized, and dying. Just stop and imagine it.

One can argue if as many biz's would have gone under or not and how fast, etc. That's hard to tell (one can even argue maybe it'd have been worse without the lockdown). But, one fallacious argument I sometimes hear is that the current recession and economic state were caused by the lockdown. No, we'd have had an economic crash naturally/anyways if the virus just ran its natural course. People would have naturally stayed home and been scared to frequent lots of businesses. And those businesses would have naturally gone under.
@Shop-et-al wrote:

You disagreed before an explanation was provided. So the second supporting statement is that just now- during the covid-19 pandemic-- people in educational settings are becoming ill. Some teachers have died from covid-19, according to various news reports. If this is true, it is hazardous to health and life itself (dangerous!) to be an educator, While many excellent reasons exist for the concept of education and for fine educational outcomes, it is dangerous to be an educator who is exposed to covid-19 at work and who might be seriously ill or die from that disease directly or indirectly (if other conditions co-exist).
Yeah, I jumped the gun on that one, Shopetal. Sorry. smiling smiley

I think, ultimately, essential service workers (including teachers) will have to individually decide what is best for themselves. We certainly cannot have essential workers just all quit. If doctors, nurses, farmers, firefighters, teachers, etc. all quit, then society cannot function.

On the other hand, I am with them in mandating basic safety. Masks should be a minimum, in my view. Opening into a low local case count would also be preferred. Reopening schools in Florida and Texas after a huge surge, for example, would seem unacceptable.

But, ultimately, there will always be some elevated risk with many professions. What's really tough for teachers is knowing that students often just won't obey social distancing and mask wearing very well (primary, secondary, and tertiary/college). It's hard to get young people to obey. So, they know probably it's a losing battle to try to stop COVID in school settings.
Then, again, in many Asian countries, it has seemed they are more successful than the U.S. re: school spread.

But, I also think there's just more of a societal level cooperation to contain the virus there and in other countries too (New Zealand, Australia, Germany, etc.).

I feel America is "broken" on too many levels. sad smiley There is no unity on what to do.
I've heard/read how Asian countries contained the virus, but it makes me wonder how that is possible when for example, South Korea (and I'm sure others nearby) has a high prevalence of TB.
@sparklesthekitty wrote:

You have got to be delusional if you're okay with Biden's massive speech blunders.
This is overly aggressive (and be would offensive/rude if directed at me). As a relatively new poster on this forum and on this thread, this way of speaking (to a longtime forum veteran) comes across as overly personalized, aggressive, and possibly even Trollish, sparklesthekitty.

It does not invite polite, intellectual conversation, but rather stirs up agitated emotions.

I would suggest taking a break before returning to this thread and consider how you are coming across in it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2020 08:22PM by shoptastic.
I'd like to add that a large portion, if not the majority, of our population is far sicker on average than those abroad. Hence, comorbities.
Yes. That helps partly explain their case fatality rate (CFR), but not infection rates. Asian countries exhibit much lower obesity vis-a-vis the U.S., which is a leading factor in complications. But, why much lower infection rates?

They have societal cooperation and take the virus seriously. They socially distance, wear masks, sanitize things regularly, aggressively test and contract trace, etc.

In the U.S., Trump has pushed for LESS testing (to hide the true case growth and infection rates), MOCKS masks and social distancing, and DOWNPLAYS everything.
And yet South Korea has a high TB case load.
As far as social cooperation, South Korea is relatively homogeneous population wise. The US is not.
From the few briefings I've seen start to finish, I have not once heard him mock the virus, nor the fatalities, nor anything else associated with this. If he was joking and not taking this seriously, he wouldn't be running daily 2 hour briefings and answering (some) nonsense questions from (some) reporters. I'd rather hear it from the man himself than read someone's 2 cent commentary on his briefings (referring to online articles, not you).
@sparklesthekitty:

Yes. President Trump is not the sound bytes that are designed to assassinate his character and influence voters. He is an intelligent man who is flawed-- exactly like all other persons in politics are. They are all just human, and I would rather notice and celebrate their accomplishments and good qualities.

Overall, the press is not a bastion of freedom for the people. Large chunks of journalism have been functioning as agenda and propaganda machines for decades. There are some within journalism who fight on a daily basis for the very opportunity to tell more sides of every story; this type of reporting should be the norm, not an occasional win.

But who is churning out the journalists who leave journalism school and enter the field already biased and warped? Where is the trail of fault for that?

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 01:38AM by Shop-et-al.
I'd also like to add that some countries that received test kits from China ended up returning them because they were not good in general statistical terms.
Same with PPE being faulty.
The issue with the "briefings" is that he obviously has no idea what he is talking about, spends the briefings in talking about what a wonderful job he is doing (with which I completely disagree) and the briefings stopped because he got annoyed when the scientists and experts who DO know what they are talking about provided information that contradicted what he had presented. The tape recording of an interview 2/7/2020 have Trump indicating the virus is airborne and very dangerous, yet to the public he complained that it was just a partisan hoax. He also indicated that it was 'just a little flu' and that it would go away in warmer weather because that is what the flu does. The guy just runs off at the mouth with whatever flavor of baloney he thinks will serve his base best today, regardless of its relationship to truth or reality.

Mankind has been plagued by viruses and diseases that before modern medicine wiped out significant numbers of the populace. The US Government has had in place agencies to deal with such outbreaks. Swine Flu, Avian Flu, Ebola were all viral entities that the preparedness of the US Government and its scientific/medical protocols kept from becoming major outbreaks in this country. Those protocols were evidently considered unimportant by this administration because the teams supporting them were dismantled several years ago, soon after the inauguration. You mentioned in another post that public health was the responsibility of the states. That is NOT the case. It is one of the roles of the Federal Government and when states have responded to protect their own people because it is as if nobody was at home in Washington, the President has roundly criticized them.

Threatening to cut funding of schools that did not reopen in September was a threat directly from the President. My state's governor is up to his bellybutton in the President's butt so schools here opened. Our positive test numbers have jumped and our death rate is going up. Kids are frequently asymptomatic carriers so a forehead thermometer test does little to tell who is infected. Rather you find out when adults in the family get sick.
Recently went shopping. People were packed like sardines in the checkout line and nobody said a peep. And yeah they were all wearing masks but still.....
@bgriffin wrote:

Covid for them is worse than wearing a mask.
Not according to my cardiologist, and I trust her a hell of a lot more than my idiot governor.

It's distancing that is the key; not some piece of underwear that traps your own coughs and sneezes.

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?” ~Walter Williams


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 02:18AM by iShop123.
Fair enough but would you agree that no matter what he does the media is always bad bad bad?
So you idea is that under perfect circumstances the virus would be controlled? Hmm, I've recently went shopping. People were packed like sardines in the checkout line. You cannot blame orange man for this. People need to take personal responsibility and so does management. What about Italy? They closed their borders later than we did. Heck, they were having open air festivals in early March....Anyway.
I've seen a lot of folks on the street put their masks on approaching people and then taking them off. There is literally no scientific basis for this. I'm confused ????
@sparklesthekitty wrote:

I'd like to add that a large portion, if not the majority, of our population is far sicker on average than those abroad. Hence, comorbities.
Highest risk group = those with BMI>40. If you're morbidly obese, STAY HOME. If you're morbidly obese, you probably have a lot of other problems that are going to kill you anyway.

>>ids are frequently asymptomatic carriers so a forehead thermometer test does little to tell who is infected<<
Based on what evidence? Studies from Sweden, Denmark, and Germany followed schoolchildren who were positive. Number of transmitted cases to adults? ZERO. On what basis are you making such an outrageous claim?

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?” ~Walter Williams


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 02:28AM by iShop123.
Flash,

There was a scientist, an epidemiologist of some sorts from the UK, that predicted 2 million deaths worldwide. At the height of the pandemic, he went out with no mask to his married lover to have sex with.
And I'd like to remind you that the medical and scientific community have not been in full consensus agreement. In fact, there have been many publicized cases of doctors and scientists with contradictory opinions. Whether you agree with them or not, they are specialists with far greater medical knowledge and experience than yourself.
In late February, Dr. Fauci said masks did not protect from the virus and were unnecessary. There was another infectious disease specialist who came out in an article reiterating the same thing. Then as the infection rates rose, they changed course. How many lives could have been saved if Fauci told us from the beginning to wear masks and socially distance?

You think it's absurd to rest an entire nation's health on one man, but you're okay with following the advice of persons that erred?
Fauci has owned that masks were advised as not helpful only because they needed PPE for first responders. It would do us no good if all doctors treating the disease got sick and/or died and/or refused to show up for work to avoid being sick. We bought our masks in February when they were available and inexpensive. We figured if we didn't need them for flu we could still use them for lawn mowing in dry weather and other dirty/dusty jobs.

If we could get them cheap, so could have the government in massive quantities or set up US industry in February to make millions of masks. I did not believe that masks would NOT help protect us when I could see footage from China showing everyone wearing mandatory masks, being arrested for being on the street during lockdown and baskets of food being hauled to upper story windows by rope. We laid in supplies and self isolated well before there was a shut down. Mostly we go out for supplies and to visit back and forth with my sons, who are also keeping self isolation.

Social distancing, hand sanitizer and hand washing have been emphasized by the scientists from the beginning.

For the President to justify his statements in February by saying it was "necessary" to downplay the virus to avoid panic is insulting to Americans and indicates his unabated arrogance. Even once masks were available, the President rarely wears one and does not encourage their use. Note his acceptance speech on the front lawn of the White House of the GOP nomination. 1500 people crowded together on folding chairs with no masks and no social distancing. What kind of role modelling is that?
Jumping in to comment on one term. A "panic" is an apt way to describe the riots. While many people just want to protest that some black persons have been treated in ways that they personally do not approve of, others are engaging in ongoing warfare for other purposes. No one except far-away strategists are thinking clearly. Most people in the thick of it are in fight or flight mode. Extended stress of this type takes a toll wherever and whenever it occurs.

We as a nation do not need to be in a panic about covid-19. As long as people are giving themselves self-care, following their personally recommended medical advice, and keeping their distance from others, they are taking reasonable precautions. We were not born with a guarantee of never acquiring any disease. We can only do what we can do for ourselves. If we are especially clever, we might fight on various medical or scientific fronts against disease on behalf of others. This, for some, is as stressful as the war-like riots and actual wars.

I would caution people to stay calm and distance on...

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus
@iShop123 wrote:

It's distancing that is the key; not some piece of underwear that traps your own coughs and sneezes.
*sigh*
A lot of damage was done early on by Fauci et. al, who said masks weren't effective at curtailing COVID. He and others have admitted that the U.S. had to say this early on, b/c there was a shortage of PPE for health workers.

In many ways, I don't fully blame people for not having proper knowledge of masks, as our own government lied to us. The truth is (Googling will back this up):

-Masks are mostly important/effective for preventing a person who has COVID from spreading it to others.
-Most agree that they are less effective at preventing a person from catching the virus.
-------->Thus, masks work best when everyone is wearing one.

If I have COVID and do not wear a mask and speak to all of you in-person in a room (assume none of you have COVID), where you all do have a mask on, there is probably a better chance that one of you would catch it than if I had a mask on and all of you didn't. Thus, we all should wear masks.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 07:42AM by shoptastic.
It drives me totally nuts that this messaging was out there in the U.S. early on. . .still, today, it feels many people don't understand how/why masks work.

...And, then, there is proper wearing of the mask itself. Many don't cover their nostrils. It would be helpful if Trump explained why universal mask usage was helpful and showed how to properly wear one and have that video go viral.
Remember the study of multiple types of masks?

All masks are not created equal. Some are more effective than others.

Wearing an ineffective, dirty, or compromised mask is no better than not wearing a mask. The illusion of being masked is only for appearances. There is no way for us to know whether the people who are praised for wearing a masks are wearing effective ones...

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus
@Shop-et-al wrote:

A "panic" is an apt way to describe the riots. While many people just want to protest that some black persons have been treated in ways that they personally do not approve of, others are engaging in ongoing warfare for other purposes.
^^ This ^^. Everyone has the right to protest what they see as injustice. No one has the right to Burn, Loot, or Murder. In my area last weekend, most of the people who were violent were not black and did not seem to be protesting anything in particular -- they were simply shouting, vandalizing, stalking, and intimidating. None of those are effective. I'm convinced that if there was another rallying cry for protest, they'd be itching for the same fight. It's not about ideology -- it's about being a thug.

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?” ~Walter Williams
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