@shoptastic wrote:

I was told by one manager that they are "equal opportunity employers." He all but told me that they hire people right out of prison

You could have stopped there. I think EOE probably has a different application in your neighborhood than mine...as does upscale! Though I am realizing there's a Target in Beverly Hills....though it's the "bad" area of Beverly Hills.

Our Target is next to Whole Foods and is in an upscale shopping center near million dollar homes. So, Target is everywhere.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

You could have stopped there. I think EOE probably has a different application in your neighborhood than mine...as does upscale! Though I am realizing there's a Target in Beverly Hills....though it's the "bad" area of Beverly Hills.

Yeah, it's an interesting way to put it. I think by law (could be wrong) that he couldn't come out and say such and such was an ex-felon. He more or less told me via indirect phrases and descriptions and promised to talk to that person to address the behavior.

With grocery stores being one of the few businesses thriving during the COVID-19 pandemic, I'm betting those workers have kept their jobs.

Just wish they wore masks and social distanced. Customers almost always had on masks when I shopped and practiced sd-ing more than workers. Sad.

Although, I'm not sure if workers are allowed to wear masks at some stores.....

[whoknewnews.com]

Interesting article I just found above. Scary stuff.

In L.A. both customers & workers are required to wear masks in essential business locations.

On a side note, regarding interacting with felons, and someplace I'm missing greatly; In downtown L.A. there's a 24-hour diner that's the last union restaurant in Los Angeles. It's owned by the former mayor of L.A. and it is apparently staffed almost exclusively with ex-cons. They are the nicest staff members you can imagine. I understand they are paid well and are probably the cream-of-the-crop as far as felons go, but over years of MSing the restaurant I got to know many of them, and they would happily talk about their past with guests who asked.

What about bank employees?

Where I live, bank lobbies are shut down and only drive thrus are open.

Same here. It is possible to make an appointment with someone in the bank for certain services that are not handled at the teller window. I have a couple of things to do there, but I am waiting until the banks can re-open and risks are less for everyone.

In Louisville there is a hotel that is staffed by formerly homeless. It's a very old and unique property and it is right downtown. I stayed there one night because it was the closest to the hospital that was my destination. The bed was really uncomfortable but the hotel itself was very charming and the staff were awesome. There were a lot of homeless people milling about outside but in that area there would have been anyway.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

In L.A. both customers & workers are required to wear masks in essential business locations.

On a side note, regarding interacting with felons, and someplace I'm missing greatly; In downtown L.A. there's a 24-hour diner that's the last union restaurant in Los Angeles. It's owned by the former mayor of L.A. and it is apparently staffed almost exclusively with ex-cons. They are the nicest staff members you can imagine. I understand they are paid well and are probably the cream-of-the-crop as far as felons go, but over years of MSing the restaurant I got to know many of them, and they would happily talk about their past with guests who asked.

Looks like Cuomo is asking NYers to wear masks/face coverings in public now:

[www.cnbc.com]

NY feels so slow. Cuomo dismissed shelter-in-pace March 18. Then, suddenly reversed course on March 20th.

There are 10,000+ deaths in NY due to COVID-19 officially and 3,000+ more "possible" deaths. That's about ~40% of all U.S. deaths.

We saw Italy's curve start to get out of hand way before March 18. They had to have known there were international flights to and from Europe out of NYC for several months. Should have acted faster imo.

Masks now are better late than never.....still...when you had 700+ people dying like every other day the past 10 days in NY, there was no thought to order mask usage?

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2020 05:31PM by shoptastic.

@shoptastic wrote:

Masks now are better late than never.....still...when you had 700+ people dying like every other day the past 10 days in NY, there was no thought to order mask usage?

It does appear that even a few days of difference in mitigation can make a huge a difference. Looking at the difference between CA and other states really shows that. CA was #2 for infections early on, just under NY, and is now #6 on the list of states. IL, FL & LA are set to soon overtake CA as well...

And Italy went into countrywide lockdown March 10, so that definitely should have been a warning. That was apparently late in the game, since after over a month of serious mitigation, there are still thousands of cases there each day.

Part of the issue with masks helping to curb the spread seems to do with culture. The UK and USA seem to have the most trouble with slowing the curve, and also seem to be some of the the most resistant to the idea of wearing masks in public.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

Part of the issue with masks helping to curb the spread seems to do with culture. The UK and USA seem to have the most trouble with slowing the curve, and also seem to be some of the the most resistant to the idea of wearing masks in public.

This is were "liberty" can sometimes work against you.

In a country like South Korea, which dramatically flattened its curve, you had quick compliance from the citizenry to government requests. From what I've read, there is a cultural element to this. Sometimes it can work in your favor like this and other times it can work against you (e.g., being overly compliant when the orders are harmful).

Here, in the U.S., we do have a "culture" of "it's my right to do x, y, and z" that may have hurt us - among other things. Some took the virus lightly (and may still do) and may have felt like social distancing and masks were infringing on their liberty.

I can speak for certain Christian churches that I think have acted with utter ignorance and recklessness that it's been embarrassing and also very sad. My home church moved to online service, as did my old church (where family attend). So, it's not been them. But, I've seen the crazy stories on the news. It's just flat out stupid to do service gatherings at this point and the justifications I've heard anger me ("God will protect us." ).

The U.S. right now really has a disjointed approach.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2020 06:56PM by shoptastic.

Another factor is merely practical: the availability or dearth of effective masks. My state has had to wait for product that can be distributed. I finally blew the budget to smithereens and ordered a large supply of disposable masks online. This should not be. I hope this expense can be computed at tax time next year as a medical expense.

If tptb want everyone to wear such masks, they should assemble a sufficient supply of masks and distribute them Before The Demand To Wear Masks Is Made. Now, the best they can do is praise us for our varying level of skill in making masks. Kudos to the pros and amateurs who are producing quality, effective masks! Kudos for the rest of us who deal with what we have on hand! Kudos for someone to ensure an 18-24 month supply of appropriate masks and gloves for everyone!

@SteveSoCal wrote:

....Part of the issue with masks helping to curb the spread seems to do with culture. The UK and USA seem to have the most trouble with slowing the curve, and also seem to be some of the the most resistant to the idea of wearing masks in public.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

FL

Spring Break + large FL retirement community =

Hard tornado hit states recently could be an issue with transmission as well, as so many homes are wrecked.

One reason they were discouraging the public from wearing masks in NY is because they needed them for health care workers and were asking for donations. They did not want the average person hoarding hospital grade masks. Now they seem to have enough and want everyone to wear them or some type of face covering in public. Also, they originally said they would not help to prevent getting Rona, but only to help to keep from spreading if you had it already.

I have friends who retired to a condo in Panama. Can you imagine this here stateside?
" Panama’s quarantine regulations are tight and fines are high. We can go out two hours for groceries, pharmacy, etc. They have it set up by last number on passport which determines the two hours you can go out and women can shop M-W-F, men on T-T-S with no one allowed out on Sundays. Also 11-1 are designated for the over 60 group. That said, I have not seen anyone checking numbers but they could. At our grocery stores there are three people and only one entrance; someone to spray your hands, another person to take your temperature and a third person with a big gun to make sure there are no issues."

@shoptastic wrote:

Looks like Cuomo is asking NYers to wear masks/face coverings in public now:

[www.cnbc.com]

NY feels so slow. Cuomo dismissed shelter-in-pace March 18. Then, suddenly reversed course on March 20th.

There are 10,000+ deaths in NY due to COVID-19 officially and 3,000+ more "possible" deaths. That's about ~40% of all U.S. deaths.

We saw Italy's curve start to get out of hand way before March 18. They had to have known there were international flights to and from Europe out of NYC for several months. Should have acted faster imo.

Masks now are better late than never.....still...when you had 700+ people dying like every other day the past 10 days in NY, there was no thought to order mask usage?

Everyone was wearing them anyway, at least, order or no order.

@MsJudi wrote:

One reason they were discouraging the public from wearing masks in NY is because they needed them for health care workers and were asking for donations. They did not want the average person hoarding hospital grade masks. Now they seem to have enough and want everyone to wear them or some type of face covering in public. Also, they originally said they would not help to prevent getting Rona, but only to help to keep from spreading if you had it already.

Yeah, but one can wear a custom (handmade) mask.

What I'd heard is that officials KNEW masks were effective at preventing the spread of the virus (although, not as good as preventing you from catching it), but didn't focus on that, b/c they DIDN'T have enough. They knew it worked in Asia. But, the stupid Trump administration (so so so many mistakes) didn't prepare us well and that's why they had to lie and say masks weren't all that effective and we needed them for health workers.

No. They knew. They gave the excuse, b/c they themselves weren't prepared with supplies!

*open to debate on this point*

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2020 08:42PM by shoptastic.

Nope. No argument or debate from me, I agree with what you said. BUT want to point out that unwritten rule about not bringing politics into the forum. It usually ends badly.

I would not lay a blame as much as remind everyone that in a new situation, we learn as we go.

At what point in time was anyone aware that a mask-necessary pandemic would erupt worldwide at this time in history? If this does not involve some some sort of sabotage, then no one should have a definitive answer to this question. And, how far back in time does the trail go? Two, three, four, or more administrations prior to now?

But it is not productive to point fingers. It is useful to learn from those events and be better prepared in future.

I remember the early debates about who should and should not wear masks. I remember when masks were ordered by the administration. All that production and distribution takes time. COVID-19 is not a respecter of time and logistics. And where were the supplies at the beginning of awareness of COVID-19? Were they sold, transferred, gifted, or what? Who owned them, and who controlled them? It might be difficult to lay blame because of private ownership rights. OTOH, because of this logistics experts will probably match supplies to needs more effectively in future.

I do not fault anyone for taking an oppressive, order-barking stance immediately or for thinking and studying for awhile before making recommendations and issuing orders. Even now, we do not know very much about this disease, and we are still learning.

I would rather give kudos for the many people around the world who are engaged in various aspects of study, treatment, and help for the direct and indirect victims of this disease.

@shoptastic wrote:

@MsJudi wrote:

One reason they were discouraging the public from wearing masks in NY is because they needed them for health care workers and were asking for donations. They did not want the average person hoarding hospital grade masks. Now they seem to have enough and want everyone to wear them or some type of face covering in public. Also, they originally said they would not help to prevent getting Rona, but only to help to keep from spreading if you had it already.

Yeah, but one can wear a custom (handmade) mask.

What I'd heard is that officials KNEW masks were effective at preventing the spread of the virus (although, not as good as preventing you from catching it), but didn't focus on that, b/c they DIDN'T have enough. They knew it worked in Asia. But, the stupid Trump administration (so so so many mistakes) didn't prepare us well and that's why they had to lie and say masks weren't all that effective and we needed them for health workers.

No. They knew. They gave the excuse, b/c they themselves weren't prepared with supplies!

*open to debate on this point*

What you "Heard" is what you heard. I thank those in charge for working endlessly toward helping all Americans. Please don't bring politics into this.

@MsJudi wrote:

What you "Heard" is what you heard. I thank those in charge for working endlessly toward helping all Americans. Please don't bring politics into this.

It's probably good to be careful with how to discuss these things. I think we can mention facts that are related to the Trump administration's handling of COVID-19 without being "political" per se. In some instances, to not mention those things would be to give an incomplete picture of things.

Having said that, I should have probably removed emotion from my post and changed some wording here and there to not make it sound as though I had a partisan gripe that was coloring my comments.

As for the masks lie, I did hear this as part of a COVID-19 analysis. It made sense. It was known that masks prevented the spread of the virus (from a carrier speaking, breathing, and coughing) better than it protected against it (by a non-carrier). So, the solution was to not consider them useless, but rather to ask EVERYONE to wear them. That way, carriers would reduce their transmissions.

However, the messaging was that: "Oh, these masks aren't that effective anyways and we need them for medical workers for whom there is a short supply."

It's true there was a short supply and health workers needed them. But, it was not true that they were ineffective. In fact, they were very effective if worn by everyone. This was what was happening in Asia. The U.S. messaging was to cover for the lack of preparedness we had here.

That's all I was saying. Hopefully not take as "political" in nature.

@Shop-et-al wrote:

I would not lay a blame as much as remind everyone that in a new situation, we learn as we go.
...
But it is not productive to point fingers. It is useful to learn from those events and be better prepared in future

I think you have a generous spirit, Shop-et-al, and were it the case that the Trump administration was simply inundated with a problem that came out of nowhere and doing its best to cope, given impossible to foresee circumstances, I'd take this view as well.

[www.theguardian.com]

I think way too may "unforced errors" were made by the U.S. response (see article above for the litany of mistakes and incompetencies) for me to feel that way. Maybe if it were just one or two...or three things...but we just messed up in so many ways and acted in other ways that seemed practically ...malevolent (?)...I don't even have the words.

[Note: I also blame China to a large degree for suppressing the outbreak info. early on. They were probably the worst actor, imho. But, I think mistakes were made by the U.S. as well.]

Even before COVID-19, Trump (as mentioned in the article) "disbanded the global health security team on the National Security Council (NSC) that was responsible for preparing for a pandemic. The NSC’s global health security chief, Rear Admiral Tim Ziemer, was fired the day after an Ebola outbreak was declared in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Last year intelligence agencies warned that the US remained vulnerable to the next flu pandemic but Trump, it seems, hoped that his long streak of political luck would hold."

In his constant obsession to undo a lot of what Obama did, Trump got rid of a lot of the preparedness the U.S. would have had for such situations. And while the rest of the world was effectively testing for COVID-19 using the WHO's German designed test kits, Trump's team did not accept them and wanted to design an American-made one. This ended up costing us valuable time and the U.S. kits didn't even work! That's why so little testing was done early on. ...There was putting Mike Pence in charge of the coronavirus task force. WHAT THE HECK???...Why not just put Ivanka Trump on there?!

There's just mistake after mistake after mistake...w/ Trump spewing nonsense science and saying the virus was a Democratic hoax, etc.

For me, I don't believe these were people acting in good faith, doing the best they can under extreme and unpredictable circumstances. At some point, I have to impute both extreme incompetence and political damage control, cover-up type of motives.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2020 01:39AM by shoptastic.

You realize that we are being informed by agendas, right? Political news, for the most part, has become a bully pulpit of people spouting agendas and ideals. Whose do you want for the future?

With this is mind, why continue to blame? It is impossible to find the real culprit or culprits because so many people have had so much to do with every aspect of this disease, which may date to sometime before 2019. This idea is being investigated now, and I have not seen a final report for it. It will be interesting to find out what is discovered.

Meanwhile, instead of slurring others, why not think about the reality of a Democratic-devised nation? The current goals of the Democratic agenda truly are Socialistic and not at all about freedoms that we have enjoyed in this Republic. If you like this outcome, you know what to do with your one vote. If you do not like this, you might be pleased to know that at least one other person knows that...

"The goal of socialism is communism." - Vladimir Lenin

POTUS and others might be strong in their understanding of the ramifications of the current US Democratic party goals and those of the current Republican party. Democrats might not be as strong in their estimation of how easily people can be led to believe their agendas and behave accordingly. I surmise this because at least a few people remember that...

"The goal of socialism is communism." - Vladimir Lenin

So far, there are indications of oppression in the COVID-19 era Is this appropriate? Is it in a blurry area where boundaries are crossed with insufficient reason? Is it possible to clear up any confusion about what is helpful and what is not?

Fortunately, there are discussions about this elsewhere. I think some of you will enjoy those discussions because you are great at dealing with these ideas here. I hope that we can remain civil and continue to put opposing ideas out there in this forum...

Tme to go to bed. When I was an undergrad, one of my English professors said I needed to "ease up" on my commas and hyphens. I overused them when unnecessary. I just spelled nonsense as "non-sense." Brain is tired. Time to sleep.

@ shopetal

Your post might have been more political than mine.

While I agree that history of the politics of the COVID-19 pandemic have yet to be fully researched and analyzed, there are some things we can say with confidence are x/y/z's fault.

You'd at least agree Trump was wrong for saying the virus was a hoax, right?

eta: some people slur their speech when sleepy....I overuse commas and phypthens.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2020 01:47AM by shoptastic.

Sweet dreams!

Groan.

I see we have reached the point in time where the Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the woodwork and start the blame-game....

With such a rapidly evolving and fluid environment regarding a brand-new virus, it is very easy to see policy and guidance evolving right along with our collective knowledge base concerning this pandemic. Yesterday's guidance gets updated based on today's information.

There are plenty of mistakes to go around, but I am going to respect the forum's rules on no politics even though I am chomping at the bit to jump into the fray on this thread.

It gets to the point that our eyes glaze over and roll in the back of our heads. I wish they would quit spewing political nonsense. I skim over and am tempted to toggle these people. Not sure why I am resisting that.