DO you think the shut down was worth it?

Regardless of the current hardships, there are consistently those who are living in cars, shelters of various sorts, under bridges, in impromptu tents in the woods and so forth. For many it is mental illness problems, for many it is drug and alcohol addiction, for some it is abject poverty. Several of the men's shelters here have empty beds most nights because there are those who will not put up with shelter rules that the doors lock at 7PM and reopen at 5AM, no drugs, no alcohol, no guns, no pets. We could go on and on with sympathy, empathy for the poor and the drug abusers, yet many/most of the issues are mental health and 40 years or so ago society chose to close the mental health institutions and decided that mental health could be treated on an outpatient basis. One has to choose to go for mental health help if one is to even hope to receive it. But to push people into getting mental health was determined to be a 'violation of their civil rights'. Sometimes you can't win for losing.

In most urban and suburban areas of the country--areas where there have tended to be the most layoffs and furloughs--those temporarily down on their luck are being protected from eviction, food is available from food banks and soup kitchens, unemployment has been stretched to cover a longer period of time than normal and utilities and financial institutions are offering assistance with rescheduling payments due. I understand that folks don't plan to fail but rather too often fail to plan. Folks who feel they have not gotten 'what they deserve' are all too ready to cry for the news camera or cell phone camera to post on Facebook with hyperbole about the direness of their situation.

America was historically considered 'the melting pot' because people of all nationalities arrived speaking little English, with little more than the clothes on their backs and the kids in their arms, with the dream of building a better life for themselves and their children. That meant working hard, being fiscally responsible, learning skills that would provide better jobs, and being an outstanding and reliable employee so that they were advanced when opportunities present themselves. A large number of those recently unemployed will return to their former employers, but if the employer can't hire them all, they will be selective about whom they have return. If an employee is not in the top half for quality of their work and attitude, they may remain unemployed.

We are going back to work here. A large part of the unemployed population here is service workers in retail, food service and resort hospitality. Resort hospitality even under normal conditions would be laying folks off for the summer, so that is not expected to rally much until early fall. Retail has apparently brought back about 25% while food service is being allowed to go from 25% to 50% occupancy next week so should be hiring back more folks. My guess is that most of the rational population shares the belief that it is too soon and going to look for a pair of shoes is not worth the risk of infection. We stopped by my favorite family owned Japanese restaurant a week ago for take out and although they have finished redoing the restaurant during the shut down they are unwilling to have any dine in yet for their own safety and the menu is posted behind a Plexiglas shield to keep it free of contamination.

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I read a blurb recently that explained how surfaces might not be such spreaders of the covid as we once were told to believe. Do we still need gloves, then? Did we waste money by purchasing unneeded PPE? Oi! It would be nice if mandates were related to actual conditions in the world today.

All people who have mental situations do not need to be institutionalized. Somewhere between the criminally insane who should be locked away for life and those who are homeless due to mental illness and prefer this to a more structured lifestyle is a large group of folks who can manage pretty well in the larger world as long as they have supportive people in their worlds. These are the ones who are often overlooked. They are not at the extremes of chronically breaking laws and constantly pooh-poohing rules; they might just need a little guidance or medication to help them stay within appropriate boundaries.

About the employer's market.. yes. This is true where I live. I have applied for a job that I previously held for several years recently and for several years a few decades ago. I do not consider myself a shoo-in. There are all kinds of people who can do this job if they want that. I have experience and have been told that I do not need to repeat the training, but I know that some people are well suited for the job and will shine brightly there. For me this is a little extra money, so I take this in stride. For people who need jobs for survival money, they will have to compete now even if they never had to do that in the past. I feel for them.....

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus
re: reopening

I guess one thing to watch for is travelers from COVID-19 hotspots coming to YOUR low case region:
[www.washingtonpost.com]

Hundreds of thousands apparently came here...
@ wrote:


Nearly 860,000 additional travelers flocked to parts of Maryland and Virginia over the weekend as the states began to reopen Friday, according to researchers tracking smartphone data. Many were from the Washington suburbs, which remained shut down because of their significantly higher coronavirus caseloads, the data shows.

The 18 percent jump in travel from previous weekends brought a total 5.83 million trips to those areas between Friday and Sunday, according to an analysis by University of Maryland researchers. . . .

The increase in travel, including from coronavirus hot spots, underscores concerns among public health experts that piecemeal lifting of restrictions increases the chances of the virus spreading. They say they’re particularly concerned about rural areas, where there have been fewer cases, as people travel from closed areas to those that have reopened........

“It’s a really bad scenario,” said Lei Zhang, lead researcher on the University of Maryland project.

By reopening some parts of states considered at lower risk ahead of coronavirus hot spots, Zhang said, “It actively encour­ages people to travel from high-risk areas to these otherwise safer, more rural areas without many cases. That’s certainly not a good trend.”

Why do I get the feeling we're going to see a big spike in cases in Virginia soon?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2020 06:55AM by shoptastic.
10 days to get to June 1st

At 1,500 deaths/day the past few days, it's sobering and scary that we'll have 100,000 official deaths by the start of June from the virus.

Those would just be the official counts. The real count would be higher.
I have year round allergies that peak several times a year. My Dad is telling me to go to the doctor because one of my symptoms is more severe this year.

There is no way that I am going now.

@panama18 wrote:

I would love to see public service announcements aimed at encouraging and possibly even shaming people into wearing masks, distancing and just in general acting like there's a pandemic going on.

@MickeyB wrote:

We have public service announcements literally telling people to go to the damn doctor.

"There's so much trouble in this world; surrounded by miracles" - Citizen Cope
The doc offices around here are pretty much ghost towns, but it may be different there. It's grocery stores that I try to stay away from, due to the number of people who just don't seem to care.
As of this morning, according to Johns Hopkins University of Medicine, at least 93,606 people have died in the United States as a result of this thing - well more than die in each year due to the flu.

What we don't truly know:
* How many more folks will pass as a result of this?
* How many folks would have died had we done nothing at all about it and let the coronavirus run its course?
* If we had taken extreme measures for about two weeks at the end of February could we have prevented most of these deaths and avoided the harm to our economy?
* Were we due for a recession about now, coronavirus or not? The economy had been going strong for a decade and no economy goes forever without a recession.
* Is there going to be a second wave of Covid-19?

We can only really trust what our scientific community says about deaths and what economists say about a recession. Scientists are overwhelming unified in their answers, but economists are not. So..... We can be certain that lives were saved by taking the steps in the shutdown that we did, but that we could have saved lives and shortened the shutdown if we had acted earlier and more decisively. We can be certain that a lot more folks are going to die - but just how many will depend on whether or not it makes a comeback now that the economy is opening up....

Me? I think we screwed up by not acting early and shutting down in February for about two weeks and then getting a proper testing program in place a we opened back up. What we did saved some lives, but it was haphazardly coordinated at best and was less-than-effective. We are #1 in the infection count and death toll in the world: This is shameful. Now, we have coupled a huge death toll with having harmed the economy - likely more than necessary. This will lead to more pain, suffering and death.

Was the shutdown worth it? I'm not convinced that the way we went about doing it was worthwhile. Our response, as a nation, to the pandemic was reprehensible on countless levels.

Hard work builds character and homework is good for your soul.
@MFJohnston wrote:


Me? I think we screwed up by not acting early and shutting down in February for about two weeks and then getting a proper testing program in place a we opened back up. What we did saved some lives, but it was haphazardly coordinated at best and was less-than-effective. We are #1 in the infection count and death toll in the world: This is shameful. Now, we have coupled a huge death toll with having harmed the economy - likely more than necessary. This will lead to more pain, suffering and death.

Was the shutdown worth it? I'm not convinced that the way we went about doing it was worthwhile. Our response, as a nation, to the pandemic was reprehensible on countless levels.

We are in complete agreement.

As for the economy, about 15 months ago there was an 'inversion on the yield curve' which means that the effective interest rates for 10 year bonds was lower than the effective interest rates for 2 year bonds. Historically that has been an indicator that there will be a recession within 18 months. The 'experts' were saying that this time it would be different because the economy was so robust. Here we are and the 'experts' are saying that reopening will get us back into a robust economy again quickly. Calmer heads are saying reopening will keep us out of Depression though it will take time to see much growth. This bring forth the question, "Are we reopening because the general population can be safe going about their daily routines or because businesses need to make profits off that general population?"
One aspect about all of this is that I feel there's been a desensitizing of COVID-19 deaths.

1,000 people dying a day from it no longer sounds shocking anymore. That was a number I said before would be hard to watch if Italy ever got to that point. Recently, we had 1,700+ and 1,800+ death days in the U.S. It's like the news has focused on reopening and not on the COVID-19 deaths anymore (if they ever even did much), as they are hitting new daily highs.

I hear lots of talk about the economy. Lots of talk about a vaccine possibly coming. Lots of talk about social distancing and what not. Has the media just chosen to not focus on the deaths?
Trump just said he won't close America down if a second wave hits:
[www.cnbc.com]

@ wrote:

President Donald Trump on Thursday said “we are not closing our country” if the U.S. is hit by a second wave of coronavirus infections.

“People say that’s a very distinct possibility, it’s standard,” Trump said when asked about a second wave during a tour of a Ford factory in Michigan.

“We are going to put out the fires. We’re not going to close the country,” Trump said. “We can put out the fires. Whether it is an ember or a flame, we are going to put it out. But we are not closing our country.”

Logically, I think if we're opening back up with rising cases in many areas, we should, in theory, see a new spike or second wave.
@Flash wrote:

"Are we reopening because the general population can be safe going about their daily routines or because businesses need to make profits off that general population?"
To all of these experts who are so hell-bent on "opening up the country," I would like to ask one simple question.
"Once all of these businesses open, WHO do you think will have discretionary dollars to purchase items?"

The general population has rent/mortgage and utility bills, not to mention needing money for luxury items such as food for the table.

I'm no expert, but common sense indicates that if the general population isn't provided with ongoing short-term relief, the general population will not be in a position to head to the mall.

If there is money to throw out millions and millions of dollars for corporate bailouts, surely someone "important" must recognize that those on the lowest rung--John & Jane Public--need just as much help.

I will not even broach the subject of no vaccine for the foreseeable future.
Planned Parenthood stands to be the big winner in Pelosi's latest trillion dollar deal. While this touches on politics and religion and the entire concept of women's rights and movements, it should be mentioned here so that someone who explains things better than I do can have a chance to state plainly why this organization should be used as bait; funded so gluttonously via an alleged relief bill, and should take center stage while numerous other concerns of all types are ignored or given short shrift. Y'all have mentioned various types of businesses that have been underfunded or not funded at all, and it appears that the Pelosi plan is to continue this neglect and abuse and direct funds where they are not needed or should not be sent at this time. I need more information, please. tia.

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus
I can only say that this particular recession/depression is the most sad and vicious one I've ever experienced and can conceive of. The nature of it has been tremendously miserable and heartwrenching.
Hubby just heard about a friend who owns a small clothing/jewelry/gift item store. It opened again this week, but there are NO customers coming in.

Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. Eleanor Roosevelt
Planned Parenthood has been the fought over rag doll between the two philosophical warring tribes while it's original purpose was (and still really is) to make sure that women are aware of their ability to produce or not produce children and if they want a child, to be able to bring it into the world in as healthy a condition as possible. Back in the days before abortion was legal, Planned Parenthood was a hate target by religious groups because they taught birth control. Now they are a hate target because they can advise or expedite perfectly legal abortions.

A lot of the divisiveness in this country comes from religious differences, especially where some groups take the stance that they are the only ones who have GOD'S TRUTH. We are supposed to have a separation between Church and State. But politicians are aware that a pastor or minister can find a whole lot of money from his/her parishioners for candidates that espouse making laws that codify that sect's values. Cutting off funding for Planned Parenthood is political coddling. They will be trying to get the Supreme Court to back down on abortion as well.

If Pelosi is looking for Planned Parenthood funding it is not an innocent gesture. The cuts to Planned Parenthood were not innocent gestures either. It was a long fight to get abortion legalized. Abortion is not a flighty decision by someone too lazy to protect themselves. When I was in high school a girl from a wealthy family was whisked away on a 'trip to France' or England for an abortion. A middle class girl might be whisked away to Mexico. A poor girl either got a back alley abortion (sometimes with hospitalization for the botched job) or was sent to a school for pregnant girls. Whether abortion is legal or not it will happen. Far better that it be legal, available and medically done.
@KathyG wrote:

Hubby just heard about a friend who owns a small clothing/jewelry/gift item store. It opened again this week, but there are NO customers coming in.

That is not terribly surprising, unfortunately. The friend is not selling that which folks would consider essential purchases at this time.

My refrigerator magnets are supporting lists for various types of 'stuff' to pick up when we hazard various types of emporiums. The notion is to get in, get the needed stuff and get out. Today I took the grocery list of the store with the best sales on produce, the list for Lowe's of 6 items that projects are on hold awaiting the items and the list for Ollie's for bird seed, Danish jams and potato sticks Bert was hungry for. I stopped by the store where I can recycle plastic grocery bags to shove mine into their bin, but didn't go in to shop.

The stores weren't crowded. I was glad I had my own sanitizing wipes as it would appear the stores have stopped wiping down carts. At the grocery about a quarter of the shoppers were in masks and the cashier and bagger. At Lowe's, mine was the only mask I saw. At Ollie's only two or three customers and one cashier had masks. This is obviously not the time to be browsing.
Maybe your doctor is doing Zoom office visits? My husband and I have done such. Kept us away from cooties.


@HonnyBrown wrote:

I have year round allergies that peak several times a year. My Dad is telling me to go to the doctor because one of my symptoms is more severe this year.

There is no way that I am going now.
They are talking about Telehealth visits here. My doc's office is scheduling 'well patients' in the morning when the waiting area and exam rooms have been fully sanitized overnight and 'sick patients' in the afternoon when there has not been time for full sanitization.
You might want to ask the over 100 families of NYCTA employees who passed away from the virus while keeping the buses & subways running to help essential employees get to work.
I agree with the telehealth visits. I just need to make the appointment.

"There's so much trouble in this world; surrounded by miracles" - Citizen Cope
@Flash wrote:

They are talking about Telehealth visits here. My doc's office is scheduling 'well patients' in the morning when the waiting area and exam rooms have been fully sanitized overnight and 'sick patients' in the afternoon when there has not been time for full sanitization.
I have a Telehealth visit through MyChart next Tuesday! It's for my pre-colonoscopy visit. It was originally scheduled for March, but was changed due to Covid. Once all that is done, then I'll have my colonoscopy scheduled. When the office nurse called me a few days ago to set this up, I asked her if the doctors had started up doing the elective colonoscopies. She told me they had never really stopped!
@guysmom wrote:

I asked her if the doctors had started up doing the elective colonoscopies. She told me they had never really stopped!

I don't know how it is in your area, but procedures such as colonoscopies, cataracts, dental surgery and some urological work are done on an out patient basis at a free standing outpatient facility. The facilities are a quick ambulance ride to the hospital ER if anything goes wrong, but that is such a rare occurrence that it almost becomes irrelevant. Those facilities have continued running throughout because most of them are not hospital owned so did not need to turn over their PPE to the hospitals.
@Shop-et-al wrote:

Planned Parenthood stands to be the big winner in Pelosi's latest trillion dollar deal. While this touches on politics and religion and the entire concept of women's rights and movements, it should be mentioned here so that someone who explains things better than I do can have a chance to state plainly why this organization should be used as bait; funded so gluttonously via an alleged relief bill, and should take center stage while numerous other concerns of all types are ignored or given short shrift. Y'all have mentioned various types of businesses that have been underfunded or not funded at all, and it appears that the Pelosi plan is to continue this neglect and abuse and direct funds where they are not needed or should not be sent at this time. I need more information, please. tia.


I've always believed that each side adds things to their bills that they don't really intend to fund. If the republicans don't agree to funding to Planned Parenthood, the democrats may not put up that much of a fight just so that they are working with the republicans on passing a bill.

It's like a car salesman who tries to sell you a car for $25k even though he can really sell it to you for $22,000 if that's what you ask for. He's going to start at $25k just so that he can ultimately say that he saved you $3k. If he cant go lower than $22k then he can't start off at that number because you won't believe that you got a deal.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2020 09:05PM by AnonymousGirl.
This is a major election year. So much can happen between now and November, including voter values clarification. Is it pork if the other side wants it? Is it essential if my side wants it? grinning smiley

Just now, I am thinking of pairing up assorted politicians who would bring balance to designated tasks. For example, let's team Bernie with Al Simpson. They are old and they know stuff. They are infinitely likeable and they would probably keep us in stitches. There are other possibilities, of course.

Things are not to be judged good or bad merely because the public think so. - Tacitus
@Flash wrote:

@guysmom wrote:

I asked her if the doctors had started up doing the elective colonoscopies. She told me they had never really stopped!

I don't know how it is in your area, but procedures such as colonoscopies, cataracts, dental surgery and some urological work are done on an out patient basis at a free standing outpatient facility. The facilities are a quick ambulance ride to the hospital ER if anything goes wrong, but that is such a rare occurrence that it almost becomes irrelevant. Those facilities have continued running throughout because most of them are not hospital owned so did not need to turn over their PPE to the hospitals.
My state of SC has been in better shape than many others, but I was surprised when the nurse told me they had never stopped. Now, the hospital system where I will have this done is Prisma (which has enlarged itself and become a leech-sucking conglomerate sucking in and up many smaller hospital systems around here. But that's a discussion for another day!), although my regular health care is done thorough another area hospital system. Anyhow, Prisma has several hospitals right in my area. There is a smaller one where they were going to admit all the Covid-19 patients, and they've never filled that one to capacity. So the one I am going to is a bit larger, and I guess they have continued with the out-patient elective diagnostic tests there.
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India: 1.3 billion population | 3720 deaths smiling smiley
Russia: 144 million | 3388 deaths
Japan: 126 million population | 814 deaths smiling smiley
South Korea: 51 million population | 266 deaths
Australia: 25 million population | 102 deaths
Singapore: 5.6 million | 23 deaths
New Zealand: 4.8 million population | 21 deaths

USA: 328 million population | 97,249 deaths sad smiley
Brazil: 209 million population | 22,013 sad smiley
U.K.: 66.6 million population | 36,675 deaths sad smiley
Italy: 60 million population | 32,735 sad smiley
Sweden: 10.2 million | 3,992 deaths
sad smiley

some up-to-date figures 05/23/2020

Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2020 11:30PM by shoptastic.
And self-inflicted.

@shoptastic wrote:

I can only say that this particular recession/depression is the most sad and vicious one I've ever experienced and can conceive of. The nature of it has been tremendously miserable and heartwrenching.
It may be self-inflected but I think that it is better than if we had ignored the problem.
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