@Threemom wrote:

True. But it's yet another economic strain that will have to be paid for somehow. It has been a year of unusually bad and expensive circumstances.

2stepps is maybe right that this should possibly go in another thread (hmmm, maybe my stimulus talk one), so I'll keep it short and maybe take up the topic in that thread.

My view (if you've read my old posts) has long been that the economy and virus threat are deeply intertwined. The faster/better we control the virus, the faster the economy can revive. Yes, another lockdown would require tremendous Federal Reserve support for that 30-45 day purge. That's a lot of money printing.

BUT, no proper lockdown and just letting the virus be a constant threat is also very expensive (unless one believes Congress will not pass a continued/extended stimulus bill - I think we get mass riots with possible huge spikes in crime in that scenario and absolute chaos in America), as we'll just have to keep passing these extended bailout bills ever 4-6 months for the next year or two.

The economic math proves this. Spending by the wealthiest 25% of Americans, who account for 2/3rd of consumer spending in America, is down 10% from the pandemic. Yet, their jobs and stock portfolio situation are back to pre-COVID levels. So, it's not for lack of money. They care about the virus threat. What's keeping the economy on life support has been the bailout money that's spurring spending by the lower-tiered income groups. These people need the money, have lost the most jobs, and spend close to all they get usually (out of necessity) on things they need.

To maintain lower-income spending, Congress HAS to extend stimulus. That will mean massive money printing. But, as long as the virus threat is still out there, this is just a temporary solution. They'll have to keep extending that stimulus and printing more and more. So, it becomes which is better?:

a.) re-lockdown aggressively and do it right
b.) constantly have these bailouts and intermittent partial, local lockdowns

Either way, America will be printing a ton of money. I just think we get through this faster if we take the pain up front.

Hell no. That is all.

Here is an interesting article from the Washington Post I ran across about the pandemic in 1918:

[www.msn.com]

I still believe that the shut down was worth it. For the vast majority of reasonable people it alerted them that the virus was real and was a real threat as we watched the number of victims and deaths soar around us.

Most people did not have masks available to protect themselves or others during the shut down so it was less effective than it might have been and the response of some people to any type of constraint for the public good was very telling about the mental status of our country. We have a whole lot of work to do in the arenas of civics and civic mindedness.

On the positive side, when I am out on essential errands I am noticing that folks are wearing masks even when there is not a sign posted on the front door to require masks. Most have come to realize, I think. that the masks are protecting themselves and it is almost a secondary concern that they protect others. I note that folks are improving on what I would call "automatic social distancing" in that they won't come close to snag that can of beans in front of me on the shelf but will wait until I move on to get it.

This weekend the beaches are being patrolled and fines are being given out for breaking the rules. Rules are carefully posted: no groups of 10 or more; no coolers on the beach; social distancing; masks when moving around on the sand. Hopefully with compliance we won't get a spike in cases for the weekend.

We all were outraged with the number of deaths from 9/11 and even approved going to war to root out the terrorists. We now have lost 60X as many Americans from COVID. Who are the 'terrorists' now?

@Flash wrote:

This weekend the beaches are being patrolled and fines are being given out for breaking the rules. Rules are carefully posted: no groups of 10 or more; no coolers on the beach; social distancing; masks when moving around on the sand. Hopefully with compliance we won't get a spike in cases for the weekend.

That's great they are doing that in FL.

VA has always been on the more careful side. We didn't implement new restrictions from what I know (could be wrong. . .I don't go out much), but have simply kept the old ones.

Still, not every city/state is so careful. Of course, I do hope we've improved since Memorial Day and July 4th, after which we had big spikes across the U.S. We'll have to see. If the pattern holds, post-holidays = higher case counts. Stay safe people!

@shoptastic wrote:

We'll have to see. If the pattern holds, post-holidays = higher case counts. Stay safe people!

Then I really fear the Thanksgiving-Christmas-New Year's season, with three "togetherness" holidays over a few weeks.

All of the Darwin Award winners want a bes.

@Susan L. wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

We'll have to see. If the pattern holds, post-holidays = higher case counts. Stay safe people!

Then I really fear the Thanksgiving-Christmas-New Year's season, with three "togetherness" holidays over a few weeks.

Thankfully, Black Friday shopping will not happen at major big box stores this year: Best Buy, WMT, TGT. That should blunt some of the catalysts for mass spread. Depending how movie theaters/bars/restaurants/concert venues/sports venues react, we may or may not get a huge Thanksgiving/Christmas/NewYear surge.

My feeling?: probably more caution than normal, as it's flu season and the dreaded winter and lots of unknowns for how COVID may behave during that time (mutate, spread more easily???).

We'll know in two weeks if Labor went "well" or not.

A big part of staying safe is keeping yourself protected. This includes where you go and the PPE you deploy but it also means getting your seasonal flu shot (they are ready early this year) and a pneumonia shot (or at least checking that your current pneumonia is up to date).

Target is already offering flu shots. When I went to pharmacy last week, they offered me one.

Bob Woodward's new book and audio released (of his March 19th Trump interview), says Trump wanted to always play down COVID:
[www.cnbc.com]

@ wrote:

Trump tells Woodward he played down the threat of the coronavirus.
"I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don't want to create a panic."

He also tells Woodward that "plenty of young people" are vulnerable -- different from his public message

(- Manu Raju)

Closing in on 200,000 official deaths and a destroyed economy. Liar-in-Chief.

America had no leadership and no plan. We NEVER had a lockdown. Certain states remained "open" and the virus was freely going around even has NY, CA, etc. locked down with Trump constantly downplaying things and even more recently pushing for LESS testing.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2020 05:45PM by shoptastic.

Target Px in my area is actually CVS. And they are who I get my drugs through. I went down and talked to them earlier last month and they said that they had the Shingles and the Flu shot and you can get them now. But I said I will have to wait because I have had both of my Cancer infusions today will have to wait a couple of weeks. And yes I think the shut down was worth it even though we have and are practically wasting it. If it had of been a national mandate to wear masks it would have worked out.

@shoptastic wrote:

Target is already offering flu shots. When I went to pharmacy last week, they offered me one.

@2stepps wrote:

If it had of been a national mandate to wear masks it would have worked out.

We could still do that NOW! But, nope. Trump out there breaking NC mask mandates with his rally this past weekend, mocking Joe Biden for wearing a mask, and making fun of social distancing. He's encouraging his followers to not take this seriously. There has been NO regard for people who've died by our President. He wants to hide and downplay things, instead.

*currently disgusted with America*

Was the shutdown worth it? I dunno. Considering competing interests and outcomes trajectories, there are only values.

- It is both good and dangerous to educate people.
- It is both good and dangerous to work.
- It is both good and dangerous to socialize.

But which is the worst?

@Shop-et-al wrote:

- It is both good and dangerous to educate people.

It's dangerous to educate people? Not sure what that might mean, Shopetal, but I'd disagree. Other countries educated their citizens and are doing better than the U.S.: Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc.

If by educating, we mean telling people to wear a mask (rather than constantly mocking it as POTUS), that COVID spreads easily, and it kills at 10x the rate of the flu (not to mention hospitalizations), which can lead to a catastrophic number of deaths (as a novel virus with no vaccine, nor herd immunity) if allowed to run wild, then I'd have to disagree. Americans deserve the truth. We should have prepared Americans for this emotionally, physically, and economically.

Instead, our leadership tried to trick us, had no plan (or a very dumb one!, as noted above), and is still in denial mode and taking no responsibility for anything. Trump only cares about his wealthy donors and own reelection. Everyone else's well-being doesn't matter.

What about the protests?

How is Trump not taking responsibility for it when during the early shut down he was giving out daily briefings? It really amazes me the mental gymnastics people put into this man to try and discredit literally every thing he does without looking at other governors who were completely and utterly irresponsible about people's lives.

Biden does not do anything to establish law and order. It is really shameful how they're pushing a senile demented man to run for president. This is elderly abuse and it's shameful.

Gee, we can change from one 'senile demented' man to another 'senile demented' man. I think, however, you will find that the NEW 'senile demented' man has some understanding of the Constitution, is significantly less paranoid, surrounds himself with qualified advisors rather than financial cronies and is less likely to define the world as 'us vs them'. The past four years is what has been truly shameful. And by the way, the families of 183,000 Americans who have died from COVID will assure you it is not a partisan hoax as the President so clearly declared.

You have got to be delusional if you're okay with Biden's massive speech blunders. If he cannot make a coherent sentence, how do you expect him to have an understanding of the Constitution? He has been mum about our cities burning, or the 100+ days of protests. Funny how everybody is blaming restaurants, beaches and everyday people about the virus spreading yet it's all crickets when it comes to the massive protests. The virus doesn't care of you're on the beach or on the street protesting.
Qualified advisors? Like Harris who cannot own up to her family's slave owning past? Like Pelosi who cannot take responsibility as a grown woman for violating state orders and not wearing a mask indoors? She was set up, wow...Do as I say, not as I do.
And lastly, Bidet's racist vitriol from his early days....come on, you cannot be this delusional.

@sparklesthekitty wrote:

How is Trump not taking responsibility for it when during the early shut down he was giving out daily briefings? It really amazes me the mental gymnastics people put into this man to try and discredit literally every thing he does without looking at other governors who were completely and utterly irresponsible about people's lives.

The problem, sparklesthekitty, was that Trump's daily briefings were filled with lots of downplaying, lying, and sometimes just scientific non-sense. And when Birx and Fauci didn't say things he liked, he pushed them aside.

Even now, Trump could mandate masks. He won't.

re: governors

I think FL, TX, AZ, and GA's governors were the worst. All GOP ones. They pushed to reopen with high case positivity in their states, leading to a very predictable surge in deaths and were reluctant to mandate mask wearing. Cuomo in New York was pretty bad at first, in my opinion too. He balked at shutting New York down saying this wasn't China. Then he had to quickly pivot (I think right after his brother, Chris Cuomo, got COVID too) just a few days later to full lockdown. I think people forget his pre-shutdown attitude and focus on how serious he took things when it was basically too late.

California did one of the better jobs (my state, Virginia, has been pretty awesome), imho, but the citizenry didn't cooperate and cases surged. That shows you can mandate masks and social distancing, but if people don't obey, the result is still bad.

This is why America depresses me right now.

Any care to expand on the 100+ day of massive protests and burning cities? Or are those covid-free?

Do you mean the Burn Loot Murder protests? They're exempt /s

@sparklesthekitty wrote:

Any care to expand on the 100+ day of massive protests and burning cities? Or are those covid-free?

With respect, do you genuinely care about COVID's spread through protests or do you care about protests for other reasons only?

If the concern is with COVID, then there is blame to go around with every side of the political spectrum: protestors/riots, party-goers, anti-maskers (spurred on by Trump), pre-mature reopeners (after a semi-useless lockdown), etc.

Without getting into politics purely, I voted Bernie (so not really a supporter of Trump, nor Biden - but I'd take Biden over Trump).

And, yes, Biden has recently denounced the violence and looting in the protests. I, myself, have said (another thread) that the protests during COVID/medical pandemic are immoral (b/c of the virus threat).

He's also been responsible about promoting mask wearing and social distancing that Trump has mocked.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2020 10:35PM by shoptastic.

I'm really curious where you see these anti-maskers when every single place I've gone into has mandated masks.
Premature reopeners? Last time I checked the news, business owners were getting massively fined and jailed for defying state orders. A huge percentage of small businesses are forever gone, and that's without any early reopenings.

The one thing maybe all sides can agree on?: if we reopen + use masks, that reduces cases/deaths dramatically and will be better for everyone.

It feels the "full lockdown" battle has been lost (at least, right now - Biden previously seemed to suggest he was open to another "real" lockdown, but then backtracked a bit). It would likely cause a Civil War of sorts in America the way people are so divided right now.

Masks, on the other hand, feel the next best thing. It seems such a simple thing to do. Like wearing pants or underwear. But, even now, we cannot get cooperation on them. People are fighting, stabbing, shooting each other, protesting, etc. over masks. ... So, I dunno anymore. . .

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2020 10:45PM by shoptastic.

Biden cannot carry on a speech without massive blunders left to right. He's showing clear signs of dementia. This is elderly abuse.
Trump has not mocked mask wearing or social distancing. He has left it up to the governors. I guess you really did not listen to a single full on briefing he did during the pandemic.
Care to expand on Bidet's racist vitriol in his early days?

I really have a tough time understanding where you folks are getting this info that people are fighting masks. Everywhere I go, everyone has their mask on. Granted, a lot of folks are downright uneducated about properly wearing masks. That, you cannot blame on Trump.

Let's be real. Bidet could care two hoots if our cities are burning as long as he's cushy in his billion dollar estates. He's too busy pandering.