DO you think the shut down was worth it?

@iShop123 wrote:

Burn, Loot, or Murder.
Murder? *scratches head*

I agree protests that are violent is wrong, but I don't believe I've seen stories of protesters killing people.

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Here are a few. Easy enough to search for others.
Chicago: [freebeacon.com]
Portland Mayor: “You are not demonstrating — you are attempting to commit murder,”
[www.latimes.com]
Seattle: [www.dailymail.co.uk]
[www.nytimes.com]

A lot of violence. You must live outside the major hubs to be scratching your head. Glad to see you post that you agree violent riots are wrong.

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?” ~Walter Williams
During the 1960s we were very involved in anti-Vietnam War protests. These were non-violent until police in Chicago started cracking protestor heads during the Democratic Convention in Chicago. We didn't need to worry about skin heads or armed 'militia' counter protesting. Peaceful assembly to protest is a tenet of civil discourse. In the area where I live now, the Black Lives Matter demonstrations have been peaceful. When the police welcome skin heads and armed 'militia' they change the dynamics for the worse. Here armed 'militia' were clearly told their 'help' was unwanted and when they were unruly and disruptive, they were arrested and removed from the area. This allowed peaceful demonstrations to remain peaceful.
Yes, I live outside these major hubs - in a suburb that is known as a very safe city. We did have protesters here demonstrate too and there was some anomalous property damage (i.e., most were peaceful). But it wasn't anything like what you saw in the news in many chaotic areas.

I think any good-willed person would be against the more chaotic and violent protests. But, I also think there is a lot of blame on a multitude of sides. Too complicated (and maybe not appropriate/on-topic?) for me to get into here.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2020 06:32AM by shoptastic.
Yes, it is a topic for a different thread and time, though our frustration with the violence and looting goes back to the same nexus of failing civic responsibility in a Democracy. This current topic was whether we thought the shut down helped with the virus control. I think the declines in infections that occurred where the shut down was honored and enforced speak for themselves. Even where it was ignored by way too many, the shut down helped slow the growth curve of the virus. The virus can not be stopped in its tracks by a shut down, it can only be slowed to keep as many people as possible uninfected until a vaccine is ready so that our doctors and nurses can focus on keeping alive those who are sick.
You'll also have a chance years from now to study how various countries did long-term vis-a-vis their lockdown protocols.

A moderator-deleted post I made (probably verbose and with a bandwidth-eating graphic, lol) a while back basically said that early U.S. economic data shows that states hardest hit by COVID have the slowest rate of economic recovery so far on average. This lines up directly with Correia, Luck, and Verner's Federal Reserve/MIT collaboration paper released earlier this year, showing that states that implemented more aggressive lockdown/social distancing measures in 1918's Spanish flu recovered faster economically than U.S. states that let the virus "run wild" so to speak. I said in the post that the chart I saw was stunning in how accurate that was in playing out today thus far. TX and FL, for example, have had slower economic production since the pandemic than other states.

And it makes logical sense. If people don't feel safe going out to spend, they'll pull back. If you have people dying and getting hospitalized for weeks at a time, you have lots of workplace interruption that can set a business back on the supply-side.

Early work travel data across countries (a chart I posted) also show that nations harder hit by COVID have been slower to see work travel patterns pick up (U.S. and U.K.) vs. their peers that controlled the virus better (Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc.). While it might still be early, there is at least a lot of good early evidence that those who controlled the virus better are economically recovering faster (be it U.S. states or entire countries).
@Flash wrote:

Yes, it is a topic for a different thread and time, though our frustration with the violence and looting goes back to the same nexus of failing civic responsibility in a Democracy.
There could be some of that underneath the frustrations. On the surface, if just dealing with the topic of white police-on-black shootings, African American economist, Roland Fryer, at Harvard University, has argued from his research that blacks are not more likely to be shot by police than whites (it's actually the reverse). Although, on other measures, they may be mistreated more. Just specifically on shootings, the data he culls shows the opposite.
[www.cnn.com]
@ wrote:

Fewer infections, stronger recovery
Early in the pandemic, economists repeatedly stressed one point: The trajectory of the virus is ultimately the biggest factor that will determine both the severity of the economic crisis and the speed of the rebound.
We're now seeing that play out across the country.
The states that are operating closest to "normal" are places that recorded the fewest coronavirus cases.
There is a good "Back-to-Normal" index of U.S. states' economic status. Food for thought. This would support the pro-lockdown argument.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2020 11:36AM by shoptastic.
Surely that does not surprise you. IF people had done what they were supposed to do the virus would not have had the opportunity to spread as it did and is doing again. Soon outdoor dining will no longer be an option through much of the country due to weather. Pressure will be on cities and states to allow full occupancy "so the restaurant can survive" and to heck with the patrons and the community.
@Flash wrote:

Surely that does not surprise you. IF people had done what they were supposed to do the virus would not have had the opportunity to spread as it did and is doing again. Soon outdoor dining will no longer be an option through much of the country due to weather. Pressure will be on cities and states to allow full occupancy "so the restaurant can survive" and to heck with the patrons and the community.
It will be interesting how history ultimately judges us many years from now.

The evidence so far seems to show we were wrong in the worst way: high deaths/infections and worst economic damage.

We locked down for nothing (this may be the worst part), b/c Trump and GOP governors undermined everything every step of the way. There was no coordination between states and insufficient enforcement. Culturally, anti-masking was practically encouraged by Trump. Then, out of that semi-useless, porous lockdown, we reopened too soon in hot spots without mask requirements.

I think you call that an abject failure and colossal tragedy of the highest order. *But, I'm not a historian.*
@shoptastic wrote:


We locked down for nothing (this may be the worst part), b/c Trump and GOP governors undermined everything every step of the way. There was no coordination between states and insufficient enforcement. Culturally, anti-masking was practically encouraged by Trump. Then, out of that semi-useless, porous lockdown, we reopened too soon in hot spots without mask requirements.

I think you call that an abject failure and colossal tragedy of the highest order. *But, I'm not a historian.*

I think you have most of it in a nutshell, though even the violated shut down helped flatten the infection curve. There is one more piece, and that is the American psyche. I think it was exemplified well by a Feed the Pig ad I saw today for the first time. A couple has bought their first house and their friends/acquaintances are indicating they want to do that 'some day' as they are eating lobster while having a massage on a hot air balloon. We as Americans do have a great deal of latitude to do what we want and when we want to. We don't necessarily see or want to see the connect the dots between our personal actions and their consequences and many get a knee jerk response against anyone suggesting how the dots connect.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2020 02:25AM by Flash.
I think we were just a little too late to act, and our country was not prepared for it. The guidance on wearing masks was also initially schizophrenic. We had enormous hot spots like New York that scared the heck out of everyone, and the medical experts did not know what they do now about the virus. It is all very sad, and we now have had numerous national disasters on top of everything. We used to have scientists on the ground in China, but alas the funding was cut for those positions last Fall. This might have provided us some advance insight. I don't think we can divorce ourselves from WHO or bastardize China and refuse to work with these entities on science if we want to be better prepared for future pandemic threats. And with what I have read, there are many potential threats due to animals and reptiles carrying these diseases. America will not be great again until we back off of a nationalistic stance and coordinate our efforts. "Was the shut down worth it?" I honestly don't think we had a choice as we were so unprepared. The shutdown perhaps gave states time to make plans and find PPE. One thing I can say, the federal government was really no help in the response. I admire states who stepped up to the plate, albeit not as fast as we would have liked. There are still so many citizens and businesses that are hurting. My heart breaks for them. The Fed has propped up the economy, but it is an expensive bandaid at best. Our national debt is the highest it has ever been. How are we ever going to dig out of this one? Certainly by not doing the same things and expecting a different result. 2020 will certainly go into the history books. I hope I'm around to see what that history will tell us.

Who knew wearing a mask (in a business) could actually lead to less virus cases? What a shocking find! *eye-roll*

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2020 02:35PM by shoptastic.
@Flash wrote:

In the area where I live now, the Black Lives Matter demonstrations have been peaceful. .
That's nice for you. It has not been the case where I live. BLM rioters have looted, harmed people, and caused millions in property damage. The violent ones are both black and white, but they're all under the BLM banner.

Look up their founders and what they stand for. This is not a peaceful movement. Many are just jumping on the bandwagon without knowing what the organization really is.

This is not a political post; it's about the movement, not about one party or another. Check some of the other ones here, as they are a definite foray into politics.

"Let me offer you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you - and why?” ~Walter Williams
Peaceful or not, I think it was outrageous that our leaders and the medical community turned a blind eye to the BLM protests during some of COVID's most dangerous phases. It's hypocritical to preach social distancing and ban gatherings (from social to actual businesses) and then say nothing about the BLM protests violating those protocols.

One medical official said something like (paraphrase): "We have to acknowledge these are important and sensitive times in American history. . ." It was a way of acquiescing on the issue and a display of a double-standard, which bothered me a lot, as it elevated racial politics above public health/safety.

I firmly believe one can whole-heartedly be against police abuse and racism, yet still recognize the greater harm of mass, agitated gatherings in the midst of a terrible pandemic. I, personally, was highly disappointed that our leaders chose to allow this double-standard and that the protesters themselves failed to see this harm.
With a survival rate of 98.5% I do not live my life around COIVD. I live in Texas. I have a higher chance of contracting Tuberculosis which has a mortality rate of over 12%. I wear a mask when asked to do so by a MSC and when a store requests it. I do not wear it walking my dog, gardening outside or in my car. In my business office I do not wear it nor do I require visitors to wear it if they do no want to. I eat at restaurants, go to public places and church. I am 55 and in relatively good health. I have parents and grandparents that are still living and they are all going on with their lives. Like my grandmother said, "I'm more likely to die of a fall or car accident than I am of COVID." She's 97. My grandfather is 100 (soon to be 101). I feel bad for those who have lost people to COVID and those who have died because of it, just like I am when someone dies of the flu or a car accident or any other way. For me personally I have always been of the mind set of we are all born dying. I don't jump off bridges, but I also don't walk around in a bubble. I am going to live my life to its fullest. I do not shame those who wear masks or don't wear masks. This is American and they have the right to their own decisions regarding their health. I find it funny people are ready to protest to a woman's right to do with her body what she wants, but will shame a person for not wearing a mask because they might be infected and kill someone else. I do avoid hot spots and have restructured my shops to smaller towns by making a road trip once a week or so to outlying areas. People are nicer there too so it is a win win for me since most of those jobs are bonused.
@mmsackett wrote:

With a survival rate of 98.5% I do not live my life around COIVD.
My father (80's - he married my much younger mother and had me in quite older age than normal) is at the highest risk with a heart condition, so, for me, I make certain sacrifices around his protection. I think that's helped me see things from the side of the vulnerable (despite not being high risk myself).

I won't be living with parents after this year - after which I will feel less anxiety about going out - but until early 2021, I'll need to be particularly careful. How much precaution one takes does depend a lot on one's/family's vulnerability.

I totally get that we ultimately cannot fully control what happens to us, but I just do my part to still be responsible and diligent (e.g., avoiding restaurants, gyms, etc.).
COVID brain fog is another reason it's good to avoid the virus (it's affecting many prime-age adults, who have recovered technically, but still show "brain fog" long after ):
[www.nytimes.com]
@ wrote:

Several weeks after Erica Taylor recovered from her Covid-19 symptoms of nausea and cough, she became confused and forgetful, failing to even recognize her own car, the only Toyota Prius in her apartment complex’s parking lot.

Lisa Mizelle, a veteran nurse practitioner at an urgent care clinic who fell ill with the virus in July, finds herself forgetting routine treatments and lab tests, and has to ask colleagues about terminology she used to know automatically. . .

When Ms. Taylor, 31, contracted the virus in mid-June, she thought she’d need only a brief break from working as a lawyer for an Atlanta nonprofit helping low-income tenants. But she became so disoriented that she washed her TV remote with her laundry and had to return a foster dog she’d recently taken in because she couldn’t trust herself to care for a pet.

One morning, “everything in my brain was white static,” she said. “I was sitting on the edge of the bed, crying and feeling ‘something’s wrong, I should be asking for help,’ but I couldn’t remember who or what I should be asking. I forgot who I was and where I was.”
It's weird and scary stuff. Ms. Taylor was ultimately not able to continue at her law firm. . .another person cannot perform doctor duties anymore. . .another left a hot stove on and is scared to cook anymore.

It's not just about surviving COVID, but surviving and being the same. Can you safely drive a car? Can you even work? etc.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:27AM by shoptastic.
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