@SteveSoCal wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

@sandyf wrote:

And I think lumping all people in their 70's and 80's and 90s together when giving the mortality rate. is deceptively high for those seniors that are not in nursing homes who are much sicker than the at home senior population.

sandyf,

Just wondering if you had a citation/evidence for this fact (of nursing home seniors being more sick than non-nursing home seniors? It sounds intuitively plausible and somewhat probable even, but I haven't read anything that cements the fact (albeit, I haven't tried to look it up either). Thanks!

You can find some interesting statistics about age breakdowns and institutional facilities on the LA County DOPH site:

[publichealth.lacounty.gov]

While 4,153 current cases are people over 65...2.326 of those cases are residents of institutions, and 1,462 cases are institution staff! 384 out of the 913 deaths in LA Country are from institutions, so it's over 1/3 of the deaths and more than 50% of the infected over 65 who are in institutions....with more than 25% of the cases being related to institutions.

This is out of over 10 Million people, so it's pretty substantial evidence there is a high percentage of infection and even higher percentage of deaths for nursing home residents.

Thanks for the response, SSC.

I think maybe there was a misunderstanding (either in my interpreting sf's statement quoted above or your understanding of what I was asking).

I thought sandyf was saying that nursing home residents are "more sick" (i.e., having some pre-existing health conditions) vs. the non-nursing home senior population. I wondered where the evidence for that was.

Given health privacy laws, I wasn't sure if it would exist.

@kimmiemae wrote:

I have Follow Your Heart parmesan cheese and cheddar cheese shreds. I also have veganaise which i think is by the same brand. All are good. Do any of you have a favorite blog you frequent for recipes?

I have that veganaise too. I think that he made potato salad with it last month? I tend to use mustard a lot.
I just cook "normally" and use cruelty-free products. There's usually something to substitute that's almost the same. We do a lot of stir fry with tofu, Mexican which is pretty easy to substitute at home - not in a restaurant, Italian with marinara and vegan parmesan, fake-meatballs, etc. Beyond burgers no more than a couple of times a month. DH eats everything. Far too much of everything I might add. He watches Food Network and looks at recipe websites, pretty much every day. He did a stuffed red bell pepper with quinoa, mushrooms, zuchini, and who knows what else? It was pretty good. I'm used to bell peppers being stuffed with meat and rice, so it was pretty darn tasty. He will make homemade spring rolls too sometimes. He makes lots of soups. Lentil soup was pretty good, but he tends to make things very spicy.
We did bean burritos tonight with (all vegan) sour cream, pepperjack cheese, fresh salsa and refried beans. We were too lazy to make rice, probably because there were a few mango margaritas earlier.

I love that your husband cooks for you, and apparently does it so well!

@SoCalMama wrote:

@kimmiemae wrote:

I have Follow Your Heart parmesan cheese and cheddar cheese shreds. I also have veganaise which i think is by the same brand. All are good. Do any of you have a favorite blog you frequent for recipes?

I have that veganaise too. I think that he made potato salad with it last month? I tend to use mustard a lot.
I just cook "normally" and use cruelty-free products. There's usually something to substitute that's almost the same. We do a lot of stir fry with tofu, Mexican which is pretty easy to substitute at home - not in a restaurant, Italian with marinara and vegan parmesan, fake-meatballs, etc. Beyond burgers no more than a couple of times a month. DH eats everything. Far too much of everything I might add. He watches Food Network and looks at recipe websites, pretty much every day. He did a stuffed red bell pepper with quinoa, mushrooms, zuchini, and who knows what else? It was pretty good. I'm used to bell peppers being stuffed with meat and rice, so it was pretty darn tasty. He will make homemade spring rolls too sometimes. He makes lots of soups. Lentil soup was pretty good, but he tends to make things very spicy.
We did bean burritos tonight with (all vegan) sour cream, pepperjack cheese, fresh salsa and refried beans. We were too lazy to make rice, probably because there were a few mango margaritas earlier.

@shoptastic wrote:

I thought sandyf was saying that nursing home residents are "more sick" (i.e., having some pre-existing health conditions) vs. the non-nursing home senior population. I wondered where the evidence for that was.

I read Sandy's comment as being concerned that all people over 65 were considered in the same bracket for mortality, as it relates to COVID-19, since there are clearly more cases and deaths in that age group housed in nursing homes that the general public (i.e more sick).

You were asking for a citation and the data from the county health department corroborates that...

I don't think it's possible to gauge the actual health of that group in/out of care facilities. The nursing home is just clearly an environment where you are more likely to contract it, and definitely more likely to die from it.

My mother was in a facility recovering from a fall when the pandemic first hit the news, and we quickly moved to have her returned home when we realized the danger. Ironically, the lockdown made it possibly for my siblings to care for her at home, so everything worked out okay.

Thanks good you're able to move your mom, SSC!

Yeah, nursing homes' communal and sometimes tight-quartered living can make virus transmission easier.

I see what you're saying and think there was just a misunderstanding of what we were both thinking.

You got me at the mango margaritas.

@SoCalMama wrote:

@kimmiemae wrote:

I have Follow Your Heart parmesan cheese and cheddar cheese shreds. I also have veganaise which i think is by the same brand. All are good. Do any of you have a favorite blog you frequent for recipes?

I have that veganaise too. I think that he made potato salad with it last month? I tend to use mustard a lot.
I just cook "normally" and use cruelty-free products. There's usually something to substitute that's almost the same. We do a lot of stir fry with tofu, Mexican which is pretty easy to substitute at home - not in a restaurant, Italian with marinara and vegan parmesan, fake-meatballs, etc. Beyond burgers no more than a couple of times a month. DH eats everything. Far too much of everything I might add. He watches Food Network and looks at recipe websites, pretty much every day. He did a stuffed red bell pepper with quinoa, mushrooms, zuchini, and who knows what else? It was pretty good. I'm used to bell peppers being stuffed with meat and rice, so it was pretty darn tasty. He will make homemade spring rolls too sometimes. He makes lots of soups. Lentil soup was pretty good, but he tends to make things very spicy.
We did bean burritos tonight with (all vegan) sour cream, pepperjack cheese, fresh salsa and refried beans. We were too lazy to make rice, probably because there were a few mango margaritas earlier.

@SteveSoCal wrote:

I went out to do some shopping yesterday and noticed a few things; The more upscale the store....the better the sanitization appeared to be. The discount stores had no line to get in, but very long lines to check out and I did not see anybody sanitizing. Shoppers were grabbing carts from the parking area and little distancing was applied in the store. I stopped into a one of the more expensive grocery stores to get a few specific products and it was a different scene; Organized line with clear markers to enter the store, directional signs for each isle, staff cleaning each cart and basket handed to guests who entered, and the register area wiped down between customers.

I think it'd be a great idea to have a running list of store sanitation practices (maybe with a little disclaimer that each store location could be different based on regional, management, etc. differences).

I nominate YOU to start such a thread!

@sandyf wrote:

Shoptastic just consider that the reason you would be in a nursing home in the first place is because you need to have medical personnel (generally a nurse or two ) around 24/7. Those seniors who are not medically needing care can go to Assisted living and further down the list getting to those who might have some illness but able to get by without 24/7 nurses available or help with daily life functions such as dressing or showering , eating etc would go to senior residences. A Nursing Home is designed for those who are very frail or sick and need others monitor them. There is a world of difference between someone who can take care of themselves in their own home and those in nursing homes. Nursing homes also have temporary patients who are there for short periods of time after a hospitalization but the permanent residents of nursing homes are mostly not at all capable of taking care of themselves. Perhaps others can chime in. There are a few who get placed in nursing homes by their "loved" ones just to be warehoused but it is a very expensive and depressing alternative for some one who is still healthy enough to not need one. I have heard recently on the news that somewhere around 40% of those dying of covid 19 are nursing home residents. Just a small percentage of older people are in nursing homes and yet they represent a large number of those who are dying now. Of course the fact that they are in tight quarters makes it more likely they will get the virus in the first place but I believe since their health is often quite compromised they are also more likely to succumb to the virus.

Thanks for the thoughts, sandyf.

Somehow, I had missed this post. *weird* Eyes must have glanced over it.

Yeah, it makes sense and also was intuitive to me, but just wasn't sure if "proven" is all.

My dad has a medical condition, though, and is not in a nursing home. We help take care of him, so that was one thought I had in mind. My uncle who passed away had multiple health conditions (taking about 20 pills a day for them) and was not in a nursing home either. So, I was thinking: you know, there are a lot of people out there with all sorts of conditions and who are seniors, but not in nursing homes.

@shoptastic wrote:

I nominate YOU to start such a thread!

I decline the nomination, but let's just say I'm not going back to Smart & Final until there are better safety protocols. I'm also avoiding Trader Joe's (even though they are super clean) because I just can't deal with waiting in line with hipsters. They may as well just put velvet stanchions out and have a doorman that accepts tips to get you in sooner.....

Grocery shelves here are only about half full. Still no paper products. Of course, I went later in the evening. I heard that if you get to the store before noon, it's not so bare.

A meat packing plant closed down in this town. It was a beef plant. Beef was hard to come by before, now it's impossible.

We are opening up, for the most part, tomorrow. My county is going against the governor's wishes asking for May 8 or 10. Which bothers me, because we have a huge number of cases here and there hasn't even been a plateau yet....still going up

We have 2 hospitals. They are so full that the patients are being taken to a neighboring county.

My husb is a cop. He went to a car crash on a day that it snowed a fair amount. The guy and his little boy were in the car in the ditch, so husb went running down the hill to check on them and stepped in a hole buried under snow on the way down. He tripped and heard a snap...broke his achilles tendon. He went to the ER and needs surgery, but no date in sight at this point....they are telling him it's going to be mid May. This happened on April 14 or 15...can't remember....days are running together. He called me and said, in a raspy voice, "I'm heading to the ER." I freaked out a little bit. Then he told me what happened, and I said, "Oh, good. I'm glad you weren't shot." I'm so full of tact....((sigh)) ((sarcasm))

Will pray for your husband, Jill.

You do have a sense of humor there.

So today is the big meat-in-the-covid-era day. Will this meat be: edible? the last for awhile? the last forever?

@Jill: I hope your hubby will be okay!


I am slightly familiar with the Greeley plant. (Many years ago, I knew someone who knew someone who worked there, and I often smell it when I am in that town.) Anyway, it re-opened on Friday, and the union's demands for more testing were not satisfied. OTOH, some changes were made that might help to control the dratted disease. A spokesperson stated that it was not easy to see how to change the process and increase distance between workers based upon the layout of that plant.

So this is why I keep asking if people who know something about this industry can think of ways to change existing plants. Are there other locations that could be adapted more easily to accommodate the processing and increase the distance between workers? Meat eaters (and possibly other inquiring minds) want to know!

*****TOILET PAPER ARRIVED DAMAGED*****

First time buying TP from Amazon. It was damaged. Packaging was torn and rolls looked "soaked" in dirty water or something. Spent over $50.

What can be done? I know they have a return request button, which I filled in. BUT, does that mean I have to take the package to the post office and return it from there?

Can someone pick it up from my home and return it? I don't want to go to the post-office to return this. There are lines there and the spacing is cramped!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2020 07:50PM by shoptastic.

You can use a label that they will send to you. Seal the package, put on the label and then take it to one of those places like Post Express that let you drop off all sorts of packages, including UPS, USPS, etc. There is no fee.
OR.... you can also request porch pick-up at your home. See the return instructions for details.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2020 08:27PM by walesmaven.

Shop-et-al: I was in the purchasing side of the biz for years. Any fresh processing plant is human run. There are only so many procedures that can be handed over to robots. And usually its only the less intricate processes that a robot can perform (slaughter, de-heading, mechanical sorting by size, abrasion techniques, washing lines, color sorting). Beyond that point, it has to be a human hand doing the work. Since output/throughput is key, the production lines require humans to stand close to each other. Envision many carcases, parts, and the like on a conveyor belt running fast by lines of workers on each side, each of them performing one function on that item they grab.

For perspective, decades ago I went to the Hormel plant in MN (they have many plants esp when they bought Jennie O). At that plant alone, they slaughtered/processed 33,000 hogs a day. Live hogs. Pulling up in huge trucks. This plant alone required thousands of workers, three shifts, usually 6 days a week (seasonally 7 days a week).

Compare to a Tesla electric car manuf plant in Fremont CA, where the robots do most of the work. Why? Its precision and each step and raw material is the very same as the before and the after. Not so with an animal, or vegetable or other food item.

Fire the questions at me. Food production was my life for quite a few years. And this whole shutdown has gotten me greatly worried.

Thanks!

@shoptastic wrote:

*****TOILET PAPER ARRIVED DAMAGED*****

First time buying TP from Amazon. It was damaged. Packaging was torn and rolls looked "soaked" in dirty water or something. Spent over $50.

What can be done? I know they have a return request button, which I filled in. BUT, does that mean I have to take the package to the post office and return it from there?

Can someone pick it up from my home and return it? I don't want to go to the post-office to return this. There are lines there and the spacing is cramped!

Contact Amazon.com directly. In your orders, you can contact for Return/Replacement. Explain the situation. They will either refund you, or send a new shipment right away. They will likely tell you to just keep it and toss for the damaged.

@Tarantado wrote:

Contact Amazon.com directly. In your orders, you can contact for Return/Replacement. Explain the situation. They will either refund you, or send a new shipment right away. They will likely tell you to just keep it and toss for the damaged.

How do you contact them directly, T?

I only see where you can contact the seller.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2020 10:27PM by shoptastic.

@walesmaven wrote:

You can use a label that they will send to you. Seal the package, put on the label and then take it to one of those places like Post Express that let you drop off all sorts of packages, including UPS, USPS, etc. There is no fee.
OR.... you can also request porch pick-up at your home. See the return instructions for details.

Will keep this in mind. Although, would still prefer to not have to go ut and return it myself at all.

COVID-19 risk + gas/mileage + time.

Would love a way to just get a refund without a return and/or a return without having to leave house.

@walesmaven wrote:

OR.... you can also request porch pick-up at your home. See the return instructions for details.

@shoptastic wrote:

How do you contact them directly, T?

I only see where you can contact the seller.

See if this helps:

First check your list of orders; on the home page of Amazon after you're logged in, click on "Return & Orders."


Then when you find your order for the item, click on "Return Items." Sometimes it'll say "Return or replace items."


Then afterwards, you can select the following option:


Hope that helped!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2020 10:55PM by Tarantado.

@Tarantado wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

How do you contact them directly, T?

I only see where you can contact the seller.

See if this helps:

First check your list of orders; on the home page of Amazon after you're logged in, click on "Return & Orders."


Then when you find your order for the item, click on "Return Items." Sometimes it'll say "Return or replace items."


Then afterwards, you can select the following option:


Hope that helped!

You've been beyond gracious with your help and time, Tarantado.

Unfortunately, my screen options look different. After going to "Return & Orders," I see my orders, but they don't have the "Return or replace items" button. Instead, there is a "Problem w/ order" button. And from there, I've tried the various options and none give me what I want (a refund).

The most I could do was contact the seller and request a return. I did both. Will have to wait and see if there is a way to get refund without having to drive out and ship the package back myself (not even my fault and I have to assume the risks).

@shoptastic wrote:

*****TOILET PAPER ARRIVED DAMAGED*****

First time buying TP from Amazon. It was damaged. Packaging was torn and rolls looked "soaked" in dirty water or something. Spent over $50.

What can be done? I know they have a return request button, which I filled in. BUT, does that mean I have to take the package to the post office and return it from there?

Can someone pick it up from my home and return it? I don't want to go to the post-office to return this. There are lines there and the spacing is cramped!

They probably wont make you return it. Take a picture, send it and they will probably refund you or send a new pack.

@shoptastic wrote:

@SteveSoCal wrote:

@shoptastic wrote:

@sandyf wrote:

And I think lumping all people in their 70's and 80's and 90s together when giving the mortality rate. is deceptively high for those seniors that are not in nursing homes who are much sicker than the at home senior population.

sandyf,

Just wondering if you had a citation/evidence for this fact (of nursing home seniors being more sick than non-nursing home seniors? It sounds intuitively plausible and somewhat probable even, but I haven't read anything that cements the fact (albeit, I haven't tried to look it up either). Thanks!

You can find some interesting statistics about age breakdowns and institutional facilities on the LA County DOPH site:

[publichealth.lacounty.gov]

While 4,153 current cases are people over 65...2.326 of those cases are residents of institutions, and 1,462 cases are institution staff! 384 out of the 913 deaths in LA Country are from institutions, so it's over 1/3 of the deaths and more than 50% of the infected over 65 who are in institutions....with more than 25% of the cases being related to institutions.

This is out of over 10 Million people, so it's pretty substantial evidence there is a high percentage of infection and even higher percentage of deaths for nursing home residents.

Thanks for the response, SSC.

I think maybe there was a misunderstanding (either in my interpreting sf's statement quoted above or your understanding of what I was asking).

I thought sandyf was saying that nursing home residents are "more sick" (i.e., having some pre-existing health conditions) vs. the non-nursing home senior population. I wondered where the evidence for that was.

Given health privacy laws, I wasn't sure if it would exist.

Yes that is what I was saying. /see longer answer elsewhere but a healthier senior has no need for a nursing home. There are millions upon millions of people over 65 who still lead very vibrant lives. ..the number might not be totally accurate but it is prob close. There are 47 seniors in the US and of that 1.3 million are in nursing homes. So if you combine that percentage together with the numbers of nursing home pts who have died from Steve's post you will see that the majority of the risk is with the seniors in nursing homes.
From the internet."But the fact is that many elderly Americans get to a point where they need long-term continuous care. About 1.3 million American seniors now live in nursing homes. 70 percent of them rely on Medicaid to pay the bill, which means they are low-income or have otherwise spent down their assets."

@sandyf wrote:

Yes that is what I was saying. /see longer answer elsewhere but a healthier senior has no need for a nursing home. There are millions upon millions of people over 65 who still lead very vibrant lives. ..the number might not be totally accurate but it is prob close.

Yeah, I think there was some intuitive aspect of what you were saying. I actually am not that familiar with nursing and/or assisted care/living homes (don't really know the difference actually). I don't have any relatives in them, but do have many senior family members.

Some have diseases and conditions that are chronic and weaken them. I guess the difference is they all have spouses and/or children who can care for them. None utilize a nursing home. I think my impression was that nursing homes were for people who were older and more frail. Maybe some have memory loss, for example. Maybe some would have a debilitating condition or need some kind of assistance in their daily lives to perform necessary/essential functions (e.g., cooking, remembering to take their meds, etc.). And, then, perhaps some would like the social aspect of a group home. I didn't think a person (again, just my personal conception - not based on any research) was NECESSARILY sick in some way (e.g., I wouldn't consider some memory loss issues as being really "sick" in a physically fragile way) to live in one.

@ wrote:

There are 47 seniors in the US and of that 1.3 million are in nursing homes. So if you combine that percentage together with the numbers of nursing home pts who have died from Steve's post you will see that the majority of the risk is with the seniors in nursing homes. From the internet."But the fact is that many elderly Americans get to a point where they need long-term continuous care. About 1.3 million American seniors now live in nursing homes. 70 percent of them rely on Medicaid to pay the bill, which means they are low-income or have otherwise spent down their assets."

That's 47 MILLION seniors that I'm guessing you meant? Yeah, this is interesting. Nursing homes do have some environmental factors that could be a cause for higher infection rates - namely, they share communal living spaces that are sometimes tight quartered in nature. But, if you throw in the assumption that many have some physical conditions that make them more vulnerable too, then you can get a bad mix.

Intuitively, I think this is correct most likely. But, it's just hard to tell for sure. Privacy laws on health issues. And then I've also read a lot of people have died in their homes who have not been officially declared case positive with COVID-19. Some just aren't tested, due to not wanting to waste what limited tests we have. I'm wondering if many of those are seniors.

@shoptastic wrote:

You've been beyond gracious with your help and time, Tarantado.

Unfortunately, my screen options look different. After going to "Return & Orders," I see my orders, but they don't have the "Return or replace items" button. Instead, there is a "Problem w/ order" button. And from there, I've tried the various options and none give me what I want (a refund).

The most I could do was contact the seller and request a return. I did both. Will have to wait and see if there is a way to get refund without having to drive out and ship the package back myself (not even my fault and I have to assume the risks).

Understood! Sounds like a third-party seller using Amazon as the platform. Either way it goes with the seller, Amazon should hopefully have your back!

@shoptastic wrote:

That's 47 MILLION seniors that I'm guessing you meant? Yeah, this is interesting. Nursing homes do have some environmental factors that could be a cause for higher infection rates - namely, they share communal living spaces that are sometimes tight quartered in nature. But, if you throw in the assumption that many have some physical conditions that make them more vulnerable too, then you can get a bad mix.

Intuitively, I think this is correct most likely. But, it's just hard to tell for sure. Privacy laws on health issues. And then I've also read a lot of people have died in their homes who have not been officially declared case positive with COVID-19. Some just aren't tested, due to not wanting to waste what limited tests we have. I'm wondering if many of those are seniors.

Sorry I did mean 47 million. I have been in a few nursing homes myself...with my mom but also Christmas Caroling with groups I belonged to in the past. In my experience almost all of the patients are confined to their beds or wheelchairs and have very little social interaction with the other residents. a lot of them just stare into space, It is very sad in many of them. I suspect that the nursing homes in places where real estate is not as expensive as it is here in the city are a lot more spacious and nicer. Also salaries would be lower so they could provide more services. I just looked up the cost and it averages around $7-8000 per month in the US. Assisted living is thousands less than that and one does not usually have to share a room there. So someone who just needs help with meds and perhaps dressing and showering and had no family to live with would choose that.Here is a stat that might enlighten you as to the condition of most nursing home residents. ."The average length of stay before death was 13.7 months, while the median was five months. Fifty-three percent of nursing home residents in the study died within six months. Men died after a median stay of three months, while women died after a median stay of eight months.Aug 24, 2010"

deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2020 03:24PM by CureMS.

I'm donating my left over gift cards to medical staff. They seem to really appreciate them.

@JASFLALMT wrote:

I have definitely been using up gift cards. No telling when someplace I have cards for might go under.

All of mine were paper certificates with partial balances on them and I only had 4.

That was thoughtful of you.